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Team States 
nb135
Sun Feb 22 2015, 05:58PM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1216
Hopefully after seeing Dedham almost win a state title with 5 kids, The Miaa will wake up and let there be a true team title, I would pay 20 Bucks to see Prep vs Central in a dual. In my personal opinion we will never know who was the best team in D1 because Prep cant qualify the same amount of kids due to the fact that there in the toughest section.
Bob Tongue
Mon Feb 23 2015, 07:08AM
Registered Member #3633
Joined: Sun Feb 05 2006, 03:19PM
Posts: 92
Website
D1N
9 in finals - 18 finish top 4
D1W
8 in finals - 18 finish top 4
Your argument doesn't hold water. The reality is that the west may not have the numbers but the talent is at a high level. You think that its easy to win a state title coming from the west, but you still have to win the matches on the mat. If the only reason Central could win states is because it is easy to come through the west, explain why central had 8 wrestlers in the semifinals at states. Explain why all eight finished top 4. Explain why Central is sending 9 wrestlers to All States. Is it because division one is the weakest division? Stop making excuses. Prep finished 6th for a reason, they are a good team, just not the best.
Catfish
Mon Feb 23 2015, 07:38AM
Registered Member #11436
Joined: Mon Nov 14 2011, 07:52AM
Posts: 109
What Dedham should be applauded - not used to make an argument for best team. Danvers took 3 championships, Dedham 2, and Wakefield 2. The coaches of these smaller programs sacrifice mightly to train their wrestlers to compete at a highere level. They don't have the numbers so their coaching is just remarkable. When it comes to the definition of best team - some think it is dual - some think it is best quality - and some a combination. D1 North is the cream of Mass wrestling - but Central was the only school with 4 semi-finalist in All States last year. If D1 North is the deepest then what Central has done for the past several years is even more commendable.
nastyhalf
Mon Feb 23 2015, 07:46AM
Registered Member #138
Joined: Fri Mar 26 2004, 12:59PM
Posts: 214
The argument for a Dual Meet Championship is not an argument against Tournament Champs. It is just to recognize that they are not the same thing. Tournament scoring rightfully rewards high achieving individuals with large amounts of team points. Dual meet scoring treats each weight class equally. So although a team with 5 high achievers can win in a tourney format it is much harder to win with 5 in a dual format. One is not better than the other, just different. Both should be recognized.
nawrestler
Mon Feb 23 2015, 10:16AM
Registered Member #4570
Joined: Thu Nov 30 2006, 06:08PM
Posts: 80
Catfish wrote ...

What Dedham should be applauded - not used to make an argument for best team. Danvers took 3 championships, Dedham 2, and Wakefield 2. The coaches of these smaller programs sacrifice mightly to train their wrestlers to compete at a highere level. They don't have the numbers so their coaching is just remarkable. When it comes to the definition of best team - some think it is dual - some think it is best quality - and some a combination. D1 North is the cream of Mass wrestling - but Central was the only school with 4 semi-finalist in All States last year. If D1 North is the deepest then what Central has done for the past several years is even more commendable.


This argument is not about deep section vs easy section. This argument is about what makes a good team. I think there should be some recognition for a coach that perennially puts out a good dual meet team. This means that every kid is being coached and is improving. I also think that a good coach is someone that gets a kid to place high at states. However, 90% of the state place finishers are not coached solely by their HS coach, they go to club or have private instruction. To say that a HS coach is good because he put 5 of his kids in the finals but they all go to Doughboy is not giving the off-season club coaches their due. From what I saw this weekend, it doesn't matter where you go to HS or who your coach is during the season. What matters is what club you belong to and how committed you are to it. I think the individual championships are not a reflection of good HS coaching they are a reflection of kids taking charge of their own success and failure. I think a dual meet championship is a better reflection of good HS coaching because you need those kids who don't commit to off-season to fill the holes between the ones that do.

We wrestled Prep and Central, both are great teams. Both have good coaches. I think Prep would have beaten Central in a dual but obviously couldn't hang in a tournament setting. Does that mean that Coach Darby is better than Coach Costa????

There is room for both championships in Mass. There is a place for a dual meet champ and a individual tourney champ. Did you watch Missouri beat Iowa? One of the best matches I have seen and the atmosphere was intense, something you won't see in a tourney. But Nashoba holding off N. Andover in D2 tourney was also fun to watch. I think we should have both. Other states do...
nb135
Mon Feb 23 2015, 11:21AM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1216
Prep didnt even finish top 5 but everyone knows they could of won states if it was a Dual meet tourney
Bob Tongue
Mon Feb 23 2015, 12:35PM
Registered Member #3633
Joined: Sun Feb 05 2006, 03:19PM
Posts: 92
Website
nb135 wrote ...

Prep didnt even finish top 5 but everyone knows they could of won states if it was a Dual meet tourney


Everyone might be a stretch. I have my doubts, but then again I am biased. I was looking forward to the dual meet at Central but weather canceled the event. I know you think St Johns would win, but that's what everyone thought last year until Central crushed them. Central has a very good dual meet team. Say what you want about team tournament vs dual meet tournament. Either way, Central would have been right there at the end.
Wrestlerlife24
Mon Feb 23 2015, 01:30PM
Registered Member #10860
Joined: Tue Jan 18 2011, 03:40PM
Posts: 52
Bob Tongue wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

Prep didnt even finish top 5 but everyone knows they could of won states if it was a Dual meet tourney


Everyone might be a stretch. I have my doubts, but then again I am biased. I was looking forward to the dual meet at Central but weather canceled the event. I know you think St Johns would win, but that's what everyone thought last year until Central crushed them. Central has a very good dual meet team. Say what you want about team tournament vs dual meet tournament. Either way, Central would have been right there at the end.


I dont know what you have against SJP, but you are talking a lot of crap over something that is meaningless and will never be proven. But i dont know what world 37-23 is crushing someone, but thats just my opinion.
youthwrestlingdad
Mon Feb 23 2015, 01:43PM
Registered Member #11006
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2011, 02:32PM
Posts: 154
nb135 wrote ...

Prep didnt even finish top 5 but everyone knows they could of won states if it was a Dual meet tourney


Everyone ????? just a little bias there . Central has how many ? 8 going to all states? How about a firm congratulations to central . Same was said last year and central won that dual .

Prep had a disappointing individual state meet . Life goes on. Very unbecoming to not give central their due. Sure d1 north is tough but it did not stop lawrence or methuen from recently becoming individual tournament state champs .....




dbreen
Mon Feb 23 2015, 01:46PM
Registered Member #2315
Joined: Tue Oct 18 2005, 02:23PM
Posts: 725
Central has the best program in mass right now. Darby is doing an incredible job. Every year they are at the top. The patriots of D1 wrestling!!!
Bob Tongue
Mon Feb 23 2015, 03:13PM
Registered Member #3633
Joined: Sun Feb 05 2006, 03:19PM
Posts: 92
Website
Wrestlerlife24 wrote ...

Bob Tongue wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

Prep didnt even finish top 5 but everyone knows they could of won states if it was a Dual meet tourney


Everyone might be a stretch. I have my doubts, but then again I am biased. I was looking forward to the dual meet at Central but weather canceled the event. I know you think St Johns would win, but that's what everyone thought last year until Central crushed them. Central has a very good dual meet team. Say what you want about team tournament vs dual meet tournament. Either way, Central would have been right there at the end.


I dont know what you have against SJP, but you are talking a lot of crap over something that is meaningless and will never be proven. But i dont know what world 37-23 is crushing someone, but thats just my opinion.



I have nothing against St Johns prep, I don't think I said anything against that program. Central and St John's Prep have a great relationship. Its a great rivalry in the best of terms. 37-23 is a pretty good win for a team that was supposed to lose, wouldn't you agree? It was interesting the way that day worked out. Central was so geared up for the match against Prep that they lost focus early in the day and got whooped by Shawsheen in the first match of the day. Any good team is capable of beating any other good team. We all have our opinions. Just because I think Central would win doesn't mean I have something against SJP. Cool your jets.
massrat
Mon Feb 23 2015, 05:06PM
Registered Member #14362
Joined: Mon Feb 09 2015, 05:07PM
Posts: 23
nawrestler wrote ...

Catfish wrote ...

What Dedham should be applauded - not used to make an argument for best team. Danvers took 3 championships, Dedham 2, and Wakefield 2. The coaches of these smaller programs sacrifice mightly to train their wrestlers to compete at a highere level. They don't have the numbers so their coaching is just remarkable. When it comes to the definition of best team - some think it is dual - some think it is best quality - and some a combination. D1 North is the cream of Mass wrestling - but Central was the only school with 4 semi-finalist in All States last year. If D1 North is the deepest then what Central has done for the past several years is even more commendable.


This argument is not about deep section vs easy section. This argument is about what makes a good team. I think there should be some recognition for a coach that perennially puts out a good dual meet team. This means that every kid is being coached and is improving. I also think that a good coach is someone that gets a kid to place high at states. However, 90% of the state place finishers are not coached solely by their HS coach, they go to club or have private instruction. To say that a HS coach is good because he put 5 of his kids in the finals but they all go to Doughboy is not giving the off-season club coaches their due. From what I saw this weekend, it doesn't matter where you go to HS or who your coach is during the season. What matters is what club you belong to and how committed you are to it. I think the individual championships are not a reflection of good HS coaching they are a reflection of kids taking charge of their own success and failure. I think a dual meet championship is a better reflection of good HS coaching because you need those kids who don't commit to off-season to fill the holes between the ones that do.

We wrestled Prep and Central, both are great teams. Both have good coaches. I think Prep would have beaten Central in a dual but obviously couldn't hang in a tournament setting. Does that mean that Coach Darby is better than Coach Costa????

There is room for both championships in Mass. There is a place for a dual meet champ and a individual tourney champ. Did you watch Missouri beat Iowa? One of the best matches I have seen and the atmosphere was intense, something you won't see in a tourney. But Nashoba holding off N. Andover in D2 tourney was also fun to watch. I think we should have both. Other states do...


I could not agree more on the impact of offseason and clubs. There are lots of good ones and they all serve a purpose. Some have more tenure and demonstrated consistency than others, but it is that offseason training when combined with the right in season coaching that makes a differance. It is not just showing up for practice, but showing up for practice with an objective in mind that makes a differance. Committment both in season and out of season is what makes the differance between a placer and a champion.
sjp
Mon Feb 23 2015, 05:59PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 639
Youthwrestlingdad
Lawrence & Methuen both won their state titles during the dual meet era. Dual meet state decided MIAA Champ those years.
youthwrestlingdad
Mon Feb 23 2015, 06:17PM
Registered Member #11006
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2011, 02:32PM
Posts: 154
Wrestlerlife24 wrote ...

Bob Tongue wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

Prep didnt even finish top 5 but everyone knows they could of won states if it was a Dual meet tourney


Everyone might be a stretch. I have my doubts, but then again I am biased. I was looking forward to the dual meet at Central but weather canceled the event. I know you think St Johns would win, but that's what everyone thought last year until Central crushed them. Central has a very good dual meet team. Say what you want about team tournament vs dual meet tournament. Either way, Central would have been right there at the end.


I dont know what you have against SJP, but you are talking a lot of crap over something that is meaningless and will never be proven. But i dont know what world 37-23 is crushing someone, but thats just my opinion.


talking crap ? PLEASE. his team is d1 champ and he is merely responding to a very weak comment from a disappointed SJP fan who was posting the meaningless wodda shooda coulda nonsense. central is d1 individual tourney champ and prep faded. get over it. maybe congratulate them ? they deserve it.


nb135
Mon Feb 23 2015, 06:55PM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1216
I'm from New bedford I thought the screen name would give it away and I'm not a prep team I'm actually not a fan of there's for reasons I rather not post. I was on New Bedford on the state finalist team from 06 and 08. In 06 in the first year of team states we lost to central by 1 match and could of went either way and then in 08 we faced Lowell who in my opinion still the best team in the 2000's in mass. But we never finished 2nd at individual states. They where loaded! So no bias to prep just being honest and what miaa charges they can afford both. 45 bucks for a damn sweat shirt lol
Patsfan
Mon Feb 23 2015, 07:43PM
Registered Member #4545
Joined: Sun Nov 26 2006, 06:45PM
Posts: 592
Oh yeah??? Well, my uncle's wrestling team can kick your uncle's wrestling team's ass! Amazing the legs this discussion has grown given most of the participants are grown ass men.
waf475
Mon Feb 23 2015, 08:25PM
Registered Member #11119
Joined: Sun Feb 20 2011, 09:40AM
Posts: 20
Gentlemen...Mother nature is the winner regarding the "dual"team winner, however, individually, there are a a lot of champions and place finishers who will move on to the next level or become captains of their high school team. They will be the ones who create future champions both individually and as a team along with their dedicated coaches. We (those who love this sport) are forever grateful each and every year our sport GROWS. Stay united. A Fan
GrayDawg
Tue Feb 24 2015, 07:29AM
Registered Member #4288
Joined: Thu Sep 07 2006, 09:05PM
Posts: 536
Patsfan wrote ...

Oh yeah??? Well, my uncle's wrestling team can kick your uncle's wrestling team's ass! Amazing the legs this discussion has grown given most of the participants are grown ass men.


Best response yet........... thanks Jeff- I needed that!
(and good luck to your son at All States!)
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