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2014-15 All State Predictions  Go to page  1 2 3 [4] 5
ROBA
Thu Feb 26 2015, 07:26AM
Registered Member #9418
Joined: Wed Dec 02 2009, 12:42PM
Posts: 59
How is the bracket re-arranged when the 1 seed is out because of injury? (145) Is it as complicated as I imagine? Is it just by formula? I don't envy the work the Bracketeers have before them.
massrat
Thu Feb 26 2015, 07:26AM
Registered Member #14362
Joined: Mon Feb 09 2015, 05:07PM
Posts: 23
To take emotional bias below are the summarized results for the last two years at All States. It indicates there is a difference both in quality and depth. That would be expected given the number of potential boys in each pool to draw from

2014 2013 Average
Division 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3
Champions 64% 29% 7% 71% 21% 7% 68% 25% 7%
Finalists 50% 36% 14% 54% 43% 4% 52% 39% 9%
Placers 41% 35% 24% 43% 34% 23% 42% 34% 24%

Based on this it would seem the tournament should be increased to 19 wrestlers, with 8 from D1, 6 from D2 and 5 from D3
mray
Thu Feb 26 2015, 07:50AM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1127
Still nit picking. Why don't all D-3 wrestlers just stay home. So you have stats. It used to be 2 divisions with the top 3 from 1 & 2 heading off to New England's. Now we beat the living heck out of the wrestlers so that everything is almost fair or equal. Before the divisional tourneys the 152 from George/Ipswich was ranked number 1 overall. One tournament later he is chump change.(I certainly don't believe that) I still believe that he is one of the best. On top of it all the kid gets it. Class act even in the losses. Let the wrestling happen. We are supposed to be a support system for all Mass. Wrestlers. Growing up on Long Island in the late 60's and early 70's big or small school there was one section champ that went to the states. The fact that we are rewarding these kids beyond that is a good thing.
Marauder
Thu Feb 26 2015, 07:56AM
Registered Member #14034
Joined: Tue May 13 2014, 11:14AM
Posts: 4
I'm confused. In this "All State Predictions" thread, we have 19 of the 78 posts actually related to the subject, less than a quarter. Can some moderator create a "I Hate Division 3 Club" thread and move all those posts over to it?
Shvarts
Thu Feb 26 2015, 08:35AM

Joined: Wed Mar 24 2004, 10:28PM
Posts: 229
ROBA wrote ...

How is the bracket re-arranged when the 1 seed is out because of injury? (145) Is it as complicated as I imagine? Is it just by formula? I don't envy the work the Bracketeers have before them.


What they've always done in the past is move up the other state champs and then the state finalist who finished behind the injured wrestler becomes the 3 seed.
So at 145 assuming, Desfosses is out, Agawam becomes the 1, Dedham the 2 and Nashoba the 3.
They don't re-seed so even if Nashoba beat Agawam and Dedham he'd be the 3 seed.
NABC
Thu Feb 26 2015, 08:59AM
Registered Member #907
Joined: Thu Dec 23 2004, 03:04PM
Posts: 513
NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.
nb135
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:04AM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1213
NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers
montytech160
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:15AM
Registered Member #13806
Joined: Thu Jan 23 2014, 08:44AM
Posts: 335
nb135 wrote ...

NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers

Exactly kids don't pick their division. Based on your logic you're saying Eric Reyes, Ryan Niven, Derek Golner, Ben Spicer, Alex Kane, Dan Wensley, Chris Sullivan, Chris Behen, Brendan Weir and many others are "unworthy of state titles" due to being from D3, but all these guys have placed at All States, placed at all states and New Englands, or have won all of them. But you know they're just less talented by being from D3. Makes sense
montytech160
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:19AM
Registered Member #13806
Joined: Thu Jan 23 2014, 08:44AM
Posts: 335
Shvarts wrote ...

ROBA wrote ...

How is the bracket re-arranged when the 1 seed is out because of injury? (145) Is it as complicated as I imagine? Is it just by formula? I don't envy the work the Bracketeers have before them.


What they've always done in the past is move up the other state champs and then the state finalist who finished behind the injured wrestler becomes the 3 seed.
So at 145 assuming, Desfosses is out, Agawam becomes the 1, Dedham the 2 and Nashoba the 3.
They don't re-seed so even if Nashoba beat Agawam and Dedham he'd be the 3 seed.

Lamas from Framingham is the 4 seed, they always seed one finalist fourth but to keep both finalists out of the same side of the bracket was why Nashoba was 6th, so actually Ronan would either move up to 5th or 4th most likely and Lamas 3rd.
Shvarts
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:24AM

Joined: Wed Mar 24 2004, 10:28PM
Posts: 229
montytech160 wrote ...

Shvarts wrote ...

ROBA wrote ...

How is the bracket re-arranged when the 1 seed is out because of injury? (145) Is it as complicated as I imagine? Is it just by formula? I don't envy the work the Bracketeers have before them.


What they've always done in the past is move up the other state champs and then the state finalist who finished behind the injured wrestler becomes the 3 seed.
So at 145 assuming, Desfosses is out, Agawam becomes the 1, Dedham the 2 and Nashoba the 3.
They don't re-seed so even if Nashoba beat Agawam and Dedham he'd be the 3 seed.

Lamas from Framingham is the 4 seed, they always seed one finalist fourth but to keep both finalists out of the same side of the bracket was why Nashoba was 6th, so actually Ronan would either move up to 5th or 4th most likely and Lamas 3rd.



Lamas is not the 4 seed, Lamas is in the 4 seed's spot based on the formula because he is B2. Nashoba isn't 6th, he's in the A2 spot. They never seed the finalist, just the champs. If Desfosses doesn't wrestle Ball will become the 3 seed, Lamas will move in to the A2 spot which is where Ball is now.
montytech160
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:26AM
Registered Member #13806
Joined: Thu Jan 23 2014, 08:44AM
Posts: 335
Shvarts wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

Shvarts wrote ...

ROBA wrote ...

How is the bracket re-arranged when the 1 seed is out because of injury? (145) Is it as complicated as I imagine? Is it just by formula? I don't envy the work the Bracketeers have before them.


What they've always done in the past is move up the other state champs and then the state finalist who finished behind the injured wrestler becomes the 3 seed.
So at 145 assuming, Desfosses is out, Agawam becomes the 1, Dedham the 2 and Nashoba the 3.
They don't re-seed so even if Nashoba beat Agawam and Dedham he'd be the 3 seed.

Lamas from Framingham is the 4 seed, they always seed one finalist fourth but to keep both finalists out of the same side of the bracket was why Nashoba was 6th, so actually Ronan would either move up to 5th or 4th most likely and Lamas 3rd.



Lamas is not the 4 seed, Lamas is in the 4 seed's spot based on the formula because he is B2. Nashoba isn't 6th, he's in the A2 spot. They never seed the finalist, just the champs. If Desfosses doesn't wrestle Ball will become the 3 seed, Lamas will move in to the A2 spot which is where Ball is now.

Ok. Sounds good.
AHS611
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:36AM
Registered Member #7279
Joined: Sun Feb 10 2008, 06:15PM
Posts: 330
Shvarts wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

Shvarts wrote ...

ROBA wrote ...

How is the bracket re-arranged when the 1 seed is out because of injury? (145) Is it as complicated as I imagine? Is it just by formula? I don't envy the work the Bracketeers have before them.


What they've always done in the past is move up the other state champs and then the state finalist who finished behind the injured wrestler becomes the 3 seed.
So at 145 assuming, Desfosses is out, Agawam becomes the 1, Dedham the 2 and Nashoba the 3.
They don't re-seed so even if Nashoba beat Agawam and Dedham he'd be the 3 seed.

Lamas from Framingham is the 4 seed, they always seed one finalist fourth but to keep both finalists out of the same side of the bracket was why Nashoba was 6th, so actually Ronan would either move up to 5th or 4th most likely and Lamas 3rd.



Lamas is not the 4 seed, Lamas is in the 4 seed's spot based on the formula because he is B2. Nashoba isn't 6th, he's in the A2 spot. They never seed the finalist, just the champs. If Desfosses doesn't wrestle Ball will become the 3 seed, Lamas will move in to the A2 spot which is where Ball is now.


I thought they'd be able to reseed - for example, Ball was 4th at All-States last year ahead of Basile (6th). Assuming they didnt wrestle this year, wouldnt D2 stay as the "A" division, with all its guys simply sliding up one spot? That's what they do at States if a sectional champ doesn't show up/misses weight.
Shvarts
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:43AM

Joined: Wed Mar 24 2004, 10:28PM
Posts: 229
AHS611 wrote ...

Shvarts wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

Shvarts wrote ...

ROBA wrote ...

How is the bracket re-arranged when the 1 seed is out because of injury? (145) Is it as complicated as I imagine? Is it just by formula? I don't envy the work the Bracketeers have before them.


What they've always done in the past is move up the other state champs and then the state finalist who finished behind the injured wrestler becomes the 3 seed.
So at 145 assuming, Desfosses is out, Agawam becomes the 1, Dedham the 2 and Nashoba the 3.
They don't re-seed so even if Nashoba beat Agawam and Dedham he'd be the 3 seed.

Lamas from Framingham is the 4 seed, they always seed one finalist fourth but to keep both finalists out of the same side of the bracket was why Nashoba was 6th, so actually Ronan would either move up to 5th or 4th most likely and Lamas 3rd.



Lamas is not the 4 seed, Lamas is in the 4 seed's spot based on the formula because he is B2. Nashoba isn't 6th, he's in the A2 spot. They never seed the finalist, just the champs. If Desfosses doesn't wrestle Ball will become the 3 seed, Lamas will move in to the A2 spot which is where Ball is now.


I thought they'd be able to reseed - for example, Ball was 4th at All-States last year ahead of Basile (6th). Assuming they didnt wrestle this year, wouldnt D2 stay as the "A" division, with all its guys simply sliding up one spot? That's what they do at States if a sectional champ doesn't show up/misses weight.



In the past they haven't reseeded. In 2005 Mansfield was the 1 seed (A1) at 112 and didn't wrestle. Rockland was A2 and beat B1 during the season but they said they don't reseed so they made Rockland C1 and moved up the B and C.
I remember hearing Bill Wassell say they don't reseed since then and I haven't heard of this changing but that doesn't mean it hasn't.
I don't know if they don't reseed due to the time it would take but that's how it's been in the past.
nb135
Thu Feb 26 2015, 09:46AM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1213
montytech160 wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers

Exactly kids don't pick their division. Based on your logic you're saying Eric Reyes, Ryan Niven, Derek Golner, Ben Spicer, Alex Kane, Dan Wensley, Chris Sullivan, Chris Behen, Brendan Weir and many others are "unworthy of state titles" due to being from D3, but all these guys have placed at All States, placed at all states and New Englands, or have won all of them. But you know they're just less talented by being from D3. Makes sense

I have no clue how many times i have to say it I am not talking about State titles I am talking about 5th and 6th place finishers are not good enough to compete with the best in the state. D3 is not deep just a couple good kids per weight, outside of injuries I don't think you will see a kid like Dik not place top 6 if he was in D3
coachskp
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:05AM
Registered Member #847
Joined: Wed Dec 15 2004, 11:37AM
Posts: 894
nb135 wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers

Exactly kids don't pick their division. Based on your logic you're saying Eric Reyes, Ryan Niven, Derek Golner, Ben Spicer, Alex Kane, Dan Wensley, Chris Sullivan, Chris Behen, Brendan Weir and many others are "unworthy of state titles" due to being from D3, but all these guys have placed at All States, placed at all states and New Englands, or have won all of them. But you know they're just less talented by being from D3. Makes sense

I have no clue how many times i have to say it I am not talking about State titles I am talking about 5th and 6th place finishers are not good enough to compete with the best in the state. D3 is not deep just a couple good kids per weight, outside of injuries I don't think you will see a kid like Dik not place top 6 if he was in D3

You are making the same argument I have made for years with regard to New Englands - there are some who would argue that MA should be able to send more than 6 to NEs in some sort of effort to make the MA teams more competitive and break the Mt A/Timberlane grip on the team title
the fact is that a MA6 does very little at NEs and this a forgiving enough system already - a good kid can have a bad day and still advance from Sectionals/States/All-States
I have argued that we should be sending fewer kids not more but, my argument is significantly muted now that NEs follows the traditional double elimination format but the fact remains that a 7th place kid from All-States isn't going to do much at New Englands - perhaps beat a NH3/RI3/ME3/VT3 but not much more - similarly I would argue that a 7th place kid from D1 isn't going to do much at All-States.
There would probably be the odd situation where a kid had a bad day was sick or something but that would be very much the exception to the rule.
If you are arguing that most D1 7th placers will beat a D3 Champ I think you are very mistaken
If you are arguing that the kids are not generally competitive - that is probably true but at this stage of the game what difference does it make - the All-States is essentially a New England qualifying tournament and if you think that through this format we are not sending the top 6 kids to NEs I think you are wrong - where is the harm in having a couple extra kids in the tourney that are not competitive as long as the ones who are competitive are there, and the D1 7th place kid is not going to NEs (probably ever).
I would challenge you to find out how many D1 6th place kids have gone on to NEs in the past 5 years - my guess is that it is less than 1/year and probably none - changing to format to accommodate 1 kid every couple years doesn't make sense
nb135
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:13AM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1213
coachskp wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers

Exactly kids don't pick their division. Based on your logic you're saying Eric Reyes, Ryan Niven, Derek Golner, Ben Spicer, Alex Kane, Dan Wensley, Chris Sullivan, Chris Behen, Brendan Weir and many others are "unworthy of state titles" due to being from D3, but all these guys have placed at All States, placed at all states and New Englands, or have won all of them. But you know they're just less talented by being from D3. Makes sense

I have no clue how many times i have to say it I am not talking about State titles I am talking about 5th and 6th place finishers are not good enough to compete with the best in the state. D3 is not deep just a couple good kids per weight, outside of injuries I don't think you will see a kid like Dik not place top 6 if he was in D3

You are making the same argument I have made for years with regard to New Englands - there are some who would argue that MA should be able to send more than 6 to NEs in some sort of effort to make the MA teams more competitive and break the Mt A/Timberlane grip on the team title
the fact is that a MA6 does very little at NEs and this a forgiving enough system already - a good kid can have a bad day and still advance from Sectionals/States/All-States
I have argued that we should be sending fewer kids not more but, my argument is significantly muted now that NEs follows the traditional double elimination format but the fact remains that a 7th place kid from All-States isn't going to do much at New Englands - perhaps beat a NH3/RI3/ME3/VT3 but not much more - similarly I would argue that a 7th place kid from D1 isn't going to do much at All-States.
There would probably be the odd situation where a kid had a bad day was sick or something but that would be very much the exception to the rule.
If you are arguing that most D1 7th placers will beat a D3 Champ I think you are very mistaken
If you are arguing that the kids are not generally competitive - that is probably true but at this stage of the game what difference does it make - the All-States is essentially a New England qualifying tournament and if you think that through this format we are not sending the top 6 kids to NEs I think you are wrong - where is the harm in having a couple extra kids in the tourney that are not competitive as long as the ones who are competitive are there, and the D1 7th place kid is not going to NEs (probably ever).
I would challenge you to find out how many D1 6th place kids have gone on to NEs in the past 5 years - my guess is that it is less than 1/year and probably none - changing to format to accommodate 1 kid every couple years doesn't make sense


My argument is not whether a 6th will place my whole argument is what kids dsereve to wrestle there, wrestling at allstates is an honor and a great experience for kids who bust there hump all year to get there
AHS611
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:14AM
Registered Member #7279
Joined: Sun Feb 10 2008, 06:15PM
Posts: 330
coachskp wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers

Exactly kids don't pick their division. Based on your logic you're saying Eric Reyes, Ryan Niven, Derek Golner, Ben Spicer, Alex Kane, Dan Wensley, Chris Sullivan, Chris Behen, Brendan Weir and many others are "unworthy of state titles" due to being from D3, but all these guys have placed at All States, placed at all states and New Englands, or have won all of them. But you know they're just less talented by being from D3. Makes sense

I have no clue how many times i have to say it I am not talking about State titles I am talking about 5th and 6th place finishers are not good enough to compete with the best in the state. D3 is not deep just a couple good kids per weight, outside of injuries I don't think you will see a kid like Dik not place top 6 if he was in D3

You are making the same argument I have made for years with regard to New Englands - there are some who would argue that MA should be able to send more than 6 to NEs in some sort of effort to make the MA teams more competitive and break the Mt A/Timberlane grip on the team title
the fact is that a MA6 does very little at NEs and this a forgiving enough system already - a good kid can have a bad day and still advance from Sectionals/States/All-States
I have argued that we should be sending fewer kids not more but, my argument is significantly muted now that NEs follows the traditional double elimination format but the fact remains that a 7th place kid from All-States isn't going to do much at New Englands - perhaps beat a NH3/RI3/ME3/VT3 but not much more - similarly I would argue that a 7th place kid from D1 isn't going to do much at All-States.
There would probably be the odd situation where a kid had a bad day was sick or something but that would be very much the exception to the rule.
If you are arguing that most D1 7th placers will beat a D3 Champ I think you are very mistaken
If you are arguing that the kids are not generally competitive - that is probably true but at this stage of the game what difference does it make - the All-States is essentially a New England qualifying tournament and if you think that through this format we are not sending the top 6 kids to NEs I think you are wrong - where is the harm in having a couple extra kids in the tourney that are not competitive as long as the ones who are competitive are there, and the D1 7th place kid is not going to NEs (probably ever).
I would challenge you to find out how many D1 6th place kids have gone on to NEs in the past 5 years - my guess is that it is less than 1/year and probably none - changing to format to accommodate 1 kid every couple years doesn't make sense



I disagree that the MA7 wouldn't do damage at New Englands. Just look at Eric Kerr last year.
coachskp
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:27AM
Registered Member #847
Joined: Wed Dec 15 2004, 11:37AM
Posts: 894
coachskp wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers

Exactly kids don't pick their division. Based on your logic you're saying Eric Reyes, Ryan Niven, Derek Golner, Ben Spicer, Alex Kane, Dan Wensley, Chris Sullivan, Chris Behen, Brendan Weir and many others are "unworthy of state titles" due to being from D3, but all these guys have placed at All States, placed at all states and New Englands, or have won all of them. But you know they're just less talented by being from D3. Makes sense

I have no clue how many times i have to say it I am not talking about State titles I am talking about 5th and 6th place finishers are not good enough to compete with the best in the state. D3 is not deep just a couple good kids per weight, outside of injuries I don't think you will see a kid like Dik not place top 6 if he was in D3

You are making the same argument I have made for years with regard to New Englands - there are some who would argue that MA should be able to send more than 6 to NEs in some sort of effort to make the MA teams more competitive and break the Mt A/Timberlane grip on the team title
the fact is that a MA6 does very little at NEs and this a forgiving enough system already - a good kid can have a bad day and still advance from Sectionals/States/All-States
I have argued that we should be sending fewer kids not more but, my argument is significantly muted now that NEs follows the traditional double elimination format but the fact remains that a 7th place kid from All-States isn't going to do much at New Englands - perhaps beat a NH3/RI3/ME3/VT3 but not much more - similarly I would argue that a 7th place kid from D1 isn't going to do much at All-States.
There would probably be the odd situation where a kid had a bad day was sick or something but that would be very much the exception to the rule.
If you are arguing that most D1 7th placers will beat a D3 Champ I think you are very mistaken
If you are arguing that the kids are not generally competitive - that is probably true but at this stage of the game what difference does it make - the All-States is essentially a New England qualifying tournament and if you think that through this format we are not sending the top 6 kids to NEs I think you are wrong - where is the harm in having a couple extra kids in the tourney that are not competitive as long as the ones who are competitive are there, and the D1 7th place kid is not going to NEs (probably ever).
I would challenge you to find out how many D1 6th place kids have gone on to NEs in the past 5 years - my guess is that it is less than 1/year and probably none - changing to format to accommodate 1 kid every couple years doesn't make sense



By way of example here is what the MA5 and MA6 have done in the past 5 years at New Englands
2010 - MA5 2-5th, MA6 1-2nd, 1 6th
2011 - MA5 2 6th, MA6 no placers
2012 - MA5 1 5th,1 6th, MA6 no placers
2013 - MA5 2 4th, 1 5th, MA6 no placers
2014 - MA5 1 6th, MA6 1 3rd, 1 6th
so out of 70 qualifying wrestlers for each place
MA5 placed 10 kids and MA6 placed 4 in the past 5 years
nb135
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:37AM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1213
coachskp wrote ...

coachskp wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

montytech160 wrote ...

nb135 wrote ...

NABC wrote ...

NB 135 - All states was implemented in 1994 as a way to determine seeding for the top 6 wrestlers in MA. The tournament was originally run in one day and no team scoring was not kept for close to 20 years. The tournament was not established to determine the top 16 guys in the state. If that was the case we would have a different system. It is simple to me, if a 7-8 placer from Div 1 wants to go to NEs, finish higher in Div 1, don't argue to take someone else's slot.

Kids don't pick there division, finishing 6th in d3 is not better then top 8 at D1 so your rewarding the easier task, It is like the Nfl rewarding a 7-9 team to have home field. a few years back we had a kid from d1 who finished 6th made it to the Allstate finals, who will never see that from D3, I will always be for rewarding the most talented wrestlers

Exactly kids don't pick their division. Based on your logic you're saying Eric Reyes, Ryan Niven, Derek Golner, Ben Spicer, Alex Kane, Dan Wensley, Chris Sullivan, Chris Behen, Brendan Weir and many others are "unworthy of state titles" due to being from D3, but all these guys have placed at All States, placed at all states and New Englands, or have won all of them. But you know they're just less talented by being from D3. Makes sense

I have no clue how many times i have to say it I am not talking about State titles I am talking about 5th and 6th place finishers are not good enough to compete with the best in the state. D3 is not deep just a couple good kids per weight, outside of injuries I don't think you will see a kid like Dik not place top 6 if he was in D3

You are making the same argument I have made for years with regard to New Englands - there are some who would argue that MA should be able to send more than 6 to NEs in some sort of effort to make the MA teams more competitive and break the Mt A/Timberlane grip on the team title
the fact is that a MA6 does very little at NEs and this a forgiving enough system already - a good kid can have a bad day and still advance from Sectionals/States/All-States
I have argued that we should be sending fewer kids not more but, my argument is significantly muted now that NEs follows the traditional double elimination format but the fact remains that a 7th place kid from All-States isn't going to do much at New Englands - perhaps beat a NH3/RI3/ME3/VT3 but not much more - similarly I would argue that a 7th place kid from D1 isn't going to do much at All-States.
There would probably be the odd situation where a kid had a bad day was sick or something but that would be very much the exception to the rule.
If you are arguing that most D1 7th placers will beat a D3 Champ I think you are very mistaken
If you are arguing that the kids are not generally competitive - that is probably true but at this stage of the game what difference does it make - the All-States is essentially a New England qualifying tournament and if you think that through this format we are not sending the top 6 kids to NEs I think you are wrong - where is the harm in having a couple extra kids in the tourney that are not competitive as long as the ones who are competitive are there, and the D1 7th place kid is not going to NEs (probably ever).
I would challenge you to find out how many D1 6th place kids have gone on to NEs in the past 5 years - my guess is that it is less than 1/year and probably none - changing to format to accommodate 1 kid every couple years doesn't make sense



By way of example here is what the MA5 and MA6 have done in the past 5 years at New Englands
2010 - MA5 2-5th, MA6 1-2nd, 1 6th
2011 - MA5 2 6th, MA6 no placers
2012 - MA5 1 5th,1 6th, MA6 no placers
2013 - MA5 2 4th, 1 5th, MA6 no placers
2014 - MA5 1 6th, MA6 1 3rd, 1 6th
so out of 70 qualifying wrestlers for each place
MA5 placed 10 kids and MA6 placed 4 in the past 5 years


i bet that is more the a vermount 3 or nh 4
coachskp
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:41AM
Registered Member #847
Joined: Wed Dec 15 2004, 11:37AM
Posts: 894
yes
VT3 placed 1 kid in 5 years - 5th
NH only sends 3
NH3 - 2010 1 3rd, 2011 1 5th, 2012 1 4th, 2013 0, 2014 1 5th and 1 4th
so NH3 actually has outperformed the MA6 in t he past 5 years in terms of total placers
nb135
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:48AM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1213
coachskp wrote ...

yes
VT3 placed 1 kid in 5 years - 5th
NH only sends 3
NH3 - 2010 1 3rd, 2011 1 5th, 2012 1 4th, 2013 0, 2014 1 5th and 1 4th
so NH3 actually has outperformed the MA6 in t he past 5 years in terms of total placers

it is very tough to compare a Nh 3 to a Mass 6th because they could of lost to the Nh 1 in Semis
patriotlegue808
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:52AM
Registered Member #10367
Joined: Wed May 26 2010, 03:01PM
Posts: 49
[quote]
Benoit injured as well ?

Yes,Benoit will be a Game Time Decision --
coachskp
Thu Feb 26 2015, 10:59AM
Registered Member #847
Joined: Wed Dec 15 2004, 11:37AM
Posts: 894
here are the remainder of the bottom qualifiers from each State
ME3 - none in 5 years although I would expect that to change now that they have started an All-State tourn.
CT4 - 2010 1 6th,
2011 1 3rd, 2 4th, 1 5th
2012 1 4th
2013 none
2014 2 4th, 1 5th, 2 6th
RI3 2010 1 4th
2011 1 3rd
2012 1 6th
2013 none
2014 none

So based on the total # of placers the CT4 and the MA5 are about even
RI3 is about even with the MA6
coachskp
Thu Feb 26 2015, 11:06AM
Registered Member #847
Joined: Wed Dec 15 2004, 11:37AM
Posts: 894
MA4 has placed 17 kids in the past 5 years
LibertyMikeC
Thu Feb 26 2015, 11:09AM
Registered Member #8105
Joined: Sat Nov 22 2008, 02:46PM
Posts: 287
NB135 said: "My argument is not whether a 6th will place my whole argument is what kids dsereve to wrestle there, wrestling at allstates is an honor and a great experience for kids who bust there hump all year to get there"

Thought this discussion got moved to another thread?!

Just because you're angered or emotionally hurt because no one from your team is going to all-states, don't try to lesson the accomplishments and hard work of those who are still in the post season.
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