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Tapping Out in Wrestling 
speedkills
Tue Feb 17 2015, 12:09PM
Registered Member #8281
Joined: Sat Dec 27 2008, 10:44AM
Posts: 305
So, I have observed this new phenomenon where kids are Tapping Out to avoid a Fall or Near Fall decision. If the position is legal, should the Ref stop the match, due to a Tap Out? There were a few matches last year that Wrestler A was down in points, had a chance for a Near Fall (3 pts) and or Pin, and Wrestler B Tapped Out and the Ref blows the whistle to stop the match, before any points were awarded. The Ref did not call it illegal, or even dangerous, he stopped the match because the of the Tap Out initiated by Wrestler B. The match restarts, in the down position, but the damage is done. This is not MMA, and many kids are using this as an option in the sport of Wrestling. I personally feel that if a Kid Taps Out to avoid a Fall or Near Fall, and the Ref stops the match, Wrestler A should win, if nothing else should be awarded 3 backs and 1pt stoppage. This issue needs to be discussed by MIAA, kids are losing close matches, because of a Ref reacting to a "Tap Out" as a legit option to stop a match, without any penalty. Again, should the Ref stop a match if the position is legal? And, If he/she stops the match, what should be the consequence for Wrestler B if he/she Taps Out? Interested in peoples thoughts.
djc33
Tue Feb 17 2015, 01:12PM
Registered Member #11595
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2012, 06:38AM
Posts: 56
when you say "tap out" do you mean use injury time?
nawrestler
Tue Feb 17 2015, 01:49PM
Registered Member #4570
Joined: Thu Nov 30 2006, 06:08PM
Posts: 80
We once had an official that would call a pin when the wrestler was being pinned and tapped out. Bring it back!
speedkills
Tue Feb 17 2015, 02:17PM
Registered Member #8281
Joined: Sat Dec 27 2008, 10:44AM
Posts: 305
[quote]
when you say "tap out" do you mean use injury time?
[/quote1424203795
for example. Wrestler A is running a power half, stretching and leaning into it, in an effort to turn wrestler B. The arm or shoulder not in danger, Ref was right in front of the action. Wrestler B was going over slowly, and started to Tap Out, because it was uncomfortable, mainly because he did not want to give the near Fall or Fall for that matter. If he turned over to his back, and pinned himself, it would have been all over. In stead, he decided, as a last resort, to Tap Out, saying he was hurting. Ref stopped the match, because of the Tap Out and awarded nothing to Wrestler A, even though he was just about to cross the 90 degrees. Wrestler A was down by 2 points, had he turned him, he would have been in a position for a Fall or 2-3 back points. At a minimum, he would have tied the match for OT.
GrayDawg
Tue Feb 17 2015, 02:39PM
Registered Member #4288
Joined: Thu Sep 07 2006, 09:05PM
Posts: 554
I just looked through every wrestling rule book that I could get my hands on (college wrestling, high school wrestling, MIAA....) and I can't- for the life of me, find anything regarding "wrestler initiated" match stoppage? Can someone point me to a page, Chapter or Section of any rule book that covers this.

I was always under the impression that there was no such thing as a 'tap out' (initiated by a wrestler) in wrestling? There is obviously the referee initiated 'potentially dangerous', 'unsportsmanlike conduct' or 'illegal hold' calls........ but those are not initiated by the wrestler as is a 'tap out' (such as in MMA).

What ref would ever allow themselves to be snookered by such a transparent ploy as described above?
dumbell
Tue Feb 17 2015, 02:54PM
Registered Member #5974
Joined: Thu Mar 22 2007, 10:27AM
Posts: 44
They should just let themselves get pinned if they cant continue in a legal pinning move...Refs should realize this and just call the pin
WarrenMcQ
Tue Feb 17 2015, 03:02PM
Registered Member #572
Joined: Tue Sep 14 2004, 11:57AM
Posts: 398
what about faking an injury to win
speedkills
Tue Feb 17 2015, 03:06PM
Registered Member #8281
Joined: Sat Dec 27 2008, 10:44AM
Posts: 305
GrayDawg wrote ...

I just looked through every wrestling rule book that I could get my hands on (college wrestling, high school wrestling, MIAA....) and I can't- for the life of me, find anything regarding "wrestler initiated" match stoppage? Can someone point me to a page, Chapter or Section of any rule book that covers this.

I was always under the impression that there was no such thing as a 'tap out' (initiated by a wrestler) in wrestling? There is obviously the referee initiated 'potentially dangerous', 'unsportsmanlike conduct' or 'illegal hold' calls........ but those are not initiated by the wrestler as is a 'tap out' (such as in MMA).

What ref would ever allow themselves to be snookered by such a transparent ploy as described above?



Well I am not hear to debate you on the rules. The example I provided above is one of 4 that I have seen over the past 2 years. So if I have observed it, others have as well. I guess the Ref could argue potential dangerous as a rationale for stoppage. But, as I mentioned, the Ref in my examples, had no intention of stopping the match until the wrestler B initiated the Tap Out and claiming he was in pain. I have also seen a Kid tapping out ( actually tapping his opponent with his hand asking to stop the match and release the hold) and the Ref refusing to stop the match, but was then yelled at by the opposing coach that he needs to below the whistle, and such the Ref stopped the match. This Ref felt pressured to do so by the other coach, in the event the Kid was hurt. Again, the move was legal. Just asking the question. Should Refs stop a match if a kid is Tapping Out? Its happening. Until there are clear rules for the Ref to reward points to Wrestler A or grant a win by default, this will continue by Wrestler B, without consequence.
Carlascooz
Tue Feb 17 2015, 03:12PM
Registered Member #11519
Joined: Sun Jan 22 2012, 09:43PM
Posts: 254
The only thing close to 'tapping out' i've ever heard of is when a wrestler screams (as if in pain).
Catfish
Tue Feb 17 2015, 03:19PM
Registered Member #11436
Joined: Mon Nov 14 2011, 07:52AM
Posts: 109
I saw something that fits the description above - although I would call it tapping out. The wrestler on the bottom let out a noise - and ref did stop it - I sense in the interest of prventing injury. The wrestler on the bottom ended up losing - but he was never injured - they started wrestling immediately after ref reset. I don't know if the ref was right or not - but he erred on the side of student athlete safety. I think this is great question - and I didn't even think about it being a strategy.
GrayDawg
Tue Feb 17 2015, 03:43PM
Registered Member #4288
Joined: Thu Sep 07 2006, 09:05PM
Posts: 554
speedkills wrote ...

GrayDawg wrote ...

I just looked through every wrestling rule book that I could get my hands on (college wrestling, high school wrestling, MIAA....) and I can't- for the life of me, find anything regarding "wrestler initiated" match stoppage? Can someone point me to a page, Chapter or Section of any rule book that covers this.

I was always under the impression that there was no such thing as a 'tap out' (initiated by a wrestler) in wrestling? There is obviously the referee initiated 'potentially dangerous', 'unsportsmanlike conduct' or 'illegal hold' calls........ but those are not initiated by the wrestler as is a 'tap out' (such as in MMA).

What ref would ever allow themselves to be snookered by such a transparent ploy as described above?



Well I am not hear to debate you on the rules. The example I provided above is one of 4 that I have seen over the past 2 years. So if I have observed it, others have as well. I guess the Ref could argue potential dangerous as a rationale for stoppage. But, as I mentioned, the Ref in my examples, had no intention of stopping the match until the wrestler B initiated the Tap Out and claiming he was in pain. I have also seen a Kid tapping out ( actually tapping his opponent with his hand asking to stop the match and release the hold) and the Ref refusing to stop the match, but was then yelled at by the opposing coach that he needs to below the whistle, and such the Ref stopped the match. This Ref felt pressured to do so by the other coach, in the event the Kid was hurt. Again, the move was legal. Just asking the question. Should Refs stop a match if a kid is Tapping Out? Its happening. Until there are clear rules for the Ref to reward points to Wrestler A or grant a win by default, this will continue by Wrestler B, without consequence.



I don't doubt you saw what you described above. I also don't want to debate you regarding rules. I am trying to learn about this and expand upon my knowledge of wrestling rules. I am legitimately asking for direction in the rule book if such a situation is covered. I think you brought up a very good topic for discussion and I would like to learn.

If I gave you any other impression, I apologize.
speedkills
Tue Feb 17 2015, 03:47PM
Registered Member #8281
Joined: Sat Dec 27 2008, 10:44AM
Posts: 305
Catfish wrote ...

I saw something that fits the description above - although I would call it tapping out. The wrestler on the bottom let out a noise - and ref did stop it - I sense in the interest of prventing injury. The wrestler on the bottom ended up losing - but he was never injured - they started wrestling immediately after ref reset. I don't know if the ref was right or not - but he erred on the side of student athlete safety. I think this is great question - and I didn't even think about it being a strategy.



I have seen your example as well. But, I am speaking about actually Tapping the other oponent, as you would see in MMA, and then letting out sound they are in pain. The example I provided was pointing out that Wrestler A is working a pinning combination move that is legal, and wrestler B is compromised, and fears the Near Fall, and is in Pain for trying to deny the Near Fall, then Taps Out to influence the Ref of potentially dangerous, without any consequence to losing the Match or giving away points to Wrestler A. This should be debated, because it is happening more an more, with the popularity of MMA. Some kids think its legit to Tap Out if they are compromised. I am not denying they are in pain from the wrestling move, but that is wrestling. I argue if wrestler B is in pain, then he or she needs to stop fighting and give up the pin. In this situation, a Ref has to make a quick decision on potential dangerous or not, since Wrestler B is tapping and making remarks they are in pain. Most Refs will stop the match, airing on the side of caution. But, why should Wrestler B be rewarded, and get a restart? While, Wrestler A gets denied the Pin and or Near Fall pts. That's what needs to change. I am not suggesting that Wrestler B is not in pain, and the Ref probably should stop the match if wrestler B is asking it to be stopped, ie to protect the kid. I am suggesting that if wrestler B is asking for the match to be stopped, then wrestler A should get the Victory, or very least 4 pts. The examples I have seen is self inflicted pain, I say that when wrestler B is trying to fight off the Near Fall, which is making the move more painful, and then realize he/she is losing the battle which leads to a TAP.
s.shore
Tue Feb 17 2015, 04:18PM
Registered Member #14212
Joined: Fri Dec 19 2014, 10:44AM
Posts: 55
GrayDawg wrote ...

speedkills wrote ...

GrayDawg wrote ...

I just looked through every wrestling rule book that I could get my hands on (college wrestling, high school wrestling, MIAA....) and I can't- for the life of me, find anything regarding "wrestler initiated" match stoppage? Can someone point me to a page, Chapter or Section of any rule book that covers this.

I was always under the impression that there was no such thing as a 'tap out' (initiated by a wrestler) in wrestling? There is obviously the referee initiated 'potentially dangerous', 'unsportsmanlike conduct' or 'illegal hold' calls........ but those are not initiated by the wrestler as is a 'tap out' (such as in MMA).

What ref would ever allow themselves to be snookered by such a transparent ploy as described above?



Well I am not hear to debate you on the rules. The example I provided above is one of 4 that I have seen over the past 2 years. So if I have observed it, others have as well. I guess the Ref could argue potential dangerous as a rationale for stoppage. But, as I mentioned, the Ref in my examples, had no intention of stopping the match until the wrestler B initiated the Tap Out and claiming he was in pain. I have also seen a Kid tapping out ( actually tapping his opponent with his hand asking to stop the match and release the hold) and the Ref refusing to stop the match, but was then yelled at by the opposing coach that he needs to below the whistle, and such the Ref stopped the match. This Ref felt pressured to do so by the other coach, in the event the Kid was hurt. Again, the move was legal. Just asking the question. Should Refs stop a match if a kid is Tapping Out? Its happening. Until there are clear rules for the Ref to reward points to Wrestler A or grant a win by default, this will continue by Wrestler B, without consequence.



I don't doubt you saw what you described above. I also don't want to debate you regarding rules. I am trying to learn about this and expand upon my knowledge of wrestling rules. I am legitimately asking for direction in the rule book if such a situation is covered. I think you brought up a very good topic for discussion and I would like to learn.

If I gave you any other impression, I apologize.



The rules do state that the ref has to stop the action if there is a hold that extends beyond the reasonable range of motion. Again, it's the ref's responsibility to safeguard these boys.

The question is: WHY did the wrestler tap out? there has to be a reason. I can guarantee the ref asked why or it was obvious the range of motion had exceeded it's limit. If the ref didn't ask....yikes!

I can tell you we had a kid last year who would tap out (kid had a shoulder injury) I would roll my eyes but felt bad anyway as I knew he was hurting. I just felt that if it was that bad he shouldn't wrestle.... in 1/2 those matches, he lost. It all came to a head in the sectionals, when I saw his shoulder pop from the socket! (legal hold btw). He came back this year and was nervous during one of the matches and decided to forfeit.

Rules matter big in this scenario....as faking an injury is unethical and subject to disqualification. There are a ton of references and scenarios that can be applied here from the rule book. This stuff isn't new.

You're right, where this can absolutely be strategic.....but the ref needs to be sharp and spot where an injury is imminent. This has been my gripe with the quality of the ref's.
s.shore
Tue Feb 17 2015, 05:23PM
Registered Member #14212
Joined: Fri Dec 19 2014, 10:44AM
Posts: 55
Just found this at FlO Wrestling:

Injury timeouts

The committee has become concerned that wrestlers have been using the injury timeout rule as a strategy to avoid wrestling action or being scored on.

Members are thus recommending that a wrestler who signals for an injury timeout that requires the 90-second injury clock to start should be penalized one point. It will be up to the official to determine if the one-point penalty should be applied.

The committee supports the current position that only a referee may call a timeout and has the prerogative to stop a match to determine whether an injury has occurred.

The rule change is not intended to change how officials are determining injuries.
speedkills
Tue Feb 17 2015, 05:31PM
Registered Member #8281
Joined: Sat Dec 27 2008, 10:44AM
Posts: 305
s.shore wrote ...

Just found this at FlO Wrestling:

Injury timeouts

The committee has become concerned that wrestlers have been using the injury timeout rule as a strategy to avoid wrestling action or being scored on.

Members are thus recommending that a wrestler who signals for an injury timeout that requires the 90-second injury clock to start should be penalized one point. It will be up to the official to determine if the one-point penalty should be applied.

The committee supports the current position that only a referee may call a timeout and has the prerogative to stop a match to determine whether an injury has occurred.

The rule change is not intended to change how officials are determining injuries.


That's a start, does this apply to HS wrestling and College? Unfortunately, in a Near Fall situation, 1 point could be debated as not adequate. But, thanks for your effort to find this ruling. Glad to see the committee is aware. Would be interesting to know if MIAA is aware of this ruling, and provides guidance to the Refs.
cradleman1952
Tue Feb 17 2015, 06:06PM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1152
I think that in the fake tap out there is too much emphasis on the referee in this situation. A coach , who knows his wrestler does this, should be addressing this with the wrestler himself and be the one to yank a kid off the mat. It's embarrassing to watch. 99% of the time it only happens when a kid is losing or he got caught in a deep "doo- doo" position. I once had a kid do that during a match as he went out of bounds and came back and put on a show that he was dizzy. I yanked him and he started telling me he was ok. I said that hopefully there won't be a next time but that he was done for the match. It's all across society. When things are going bad you need to have an excuse. Get beat on the wing in soccer, football, or basketball and you pull up lame or act like you are hurt. A referee doesn't have much choice than to stop the match if there is a perception that a kid is hurt. If he decides wrong in his interpretation then he will be held liable. I know my kids. I know who is prone to drama and who will grind it out. Just my 2 cents.
s.shore
Tue Feb 17 2015, 06:11PM
Registered Member #14212
Joined: Fri Dec 19 2014, 10:44AM
Posts: 55
speedkills wrote ...

s.shore wrote ...

Just found this at FlO Wrestling:

Injury timeouts

The committee has become concerned that wrestlers have been using the injury timeout rule as a strategy to avoid wrestling action or being scored on.

Members are thus recommending that a wrestler who signals for an injury timeout that requires the 90-second injury clock to start should be penalized one point. It will be up to the official to determine if the one-point penalty should be applied.

The committee supports the current position that only a referee may call a timeout and has the prerogative to stop a match to determine whether an injury has occurred.

The rule change is not intended to change how officials are determining injuries.


That's a start, does this apply to HS wrestling and College? Unfortunately, in a Near Fall situation, 1 point could be debated as not adequate. But, thanks for your effort to find this ruling. Glad to see the committee is aware. Would be interesting to know if MIAA is aware of this ruling, and provides guidance to the Refs.



The article is from a Greg Johnson, NCAA.org.... So I'll go with College:) However in the same article he discusses adopting some High School rules as they seem favorable for College...Sooo, I'm trying to compare this injury time out with the NFHS and they seem to be in line where it's the REF that determines if an injury has occurred.....which was my original train of thought. The problem is; Will the REF's be savvy in recognizing and acting quick to take the appropriate action. You just can't wait, the clock is going to run out before a decision is made. All season long I've only seen one REF sorry, two REF's that were quick and accurate. If a REF only calls reversals or escapes all day long, they are not doing their job.

People are going to take this as REF bashing, but that is not my goal, I know it's tough, just be sharp and know your craft. It's an art form. Believe me, I enjoy watching a ref get in to the action.
CoachB
Tue Feb 17 2015, 06:35PM
Registered Member #303
Joined: Fri Apr 09 2004, 08:24PM
Posts: 491
s.shore wrote ...

speedkills wrote ...

s.shore wrote ...

Just found this at FlO Wrestling:

Injury timeouts

The committee has become concerned that wrestlers have been using the injury timeout rule as a strategy to avoid wrestling action or being scored on.

Members are thus recommending that a wrestler who signals for an injury timeout that requires the 90-second injury clock to start should be penalized one point. It will be up to the official to determine if the one-point penalty should be applied.

The committee supports the current position that only a referee may call a timeout and has the prerogative to stop a match to determine whether an injury has occurred.

The rule change is not intended to change how officials are determining injuries.


That's a start, does this apply to HS wrestling and College? Unfortunately, in a Near Fall situation, 1 point could be debated as not adequate. But, thanks for your effort to find this ruling. Glad to see the committee is aware. Would be interesting to know if MIAA is aware of this ruling, and provides guidance to the Refs.



The article is from a Greg Johnson, NCAA.org.... So I'll go with College:) However in the same article he discusses adopting some High School rules as they seem favorable for College...Sooo, I'm trying to compare this injury time out with the NFHS and they seem to be in line where it's the REF that determines if an injury has occurred.....which was my original train of thought. The problem is; Will the REF's be savvy in recognizing and acting quick to take the appropriate action. You just can't wait, the clock is going to run out before a decision is made. All season long I've only seen one REF sorry, two REF's that were quick and accurate. If a REF only calls reversals or escapes all day long, they are not doing their job.

People are going to take this as REF bashing, but that is not my goal, I know it's tough, just be sharp and know your craft. It's an art form. Believe me, I enjoy watching a ref get in to the action.

Do you think the REF wants to be found liable for an injury?
speedkills
Tue Feb 17 2015, 06:39PM
Registered Member #8281
Joined: Sat Dec 27 2008, 10:44AM
Posts: 305
This is getting a little off topic, about kids calling injury timeout, etc. Injury time out is a legit call, if the kid is really hurt, or needs bloodtime. I was more interested in what should a Ref do if a kid is tapping out, ie initiating the stoppage of a match, asking to quit? Should the Ref stop the match as the kid requests, or should he let it continue, if the hold is legal? If he stops it, based on the Kids request by virtue of the Tap, how should you award points to the Kid about to score a Near Fall or Fall? Or should the match be over? I don't know the answer, but I think MIAA should have some clarity on the subject.
CoachB
Tue Feb 17 2015, 06:41PM
Registered Member #303
Joined: Fri Apr 09 2004, 08:24PM
Posts: 491
speedkills wrote ...

This is getting a little off topic, about kids calling injury timeout, etc. Injury time out is a legit call, if the kid is really hurt, or needs bloodtime. I was more interested in what should a Ref do if a kid is tapping out, ie initiating the stoppage of a match, asking to quit? Should the Ref stop the match as the kid requests, or should he let it continue, if the hold is legal? If he stops it, based on the Kids request by virtue of the Tap, how should you award points to the Kid about to score a Near Fall or Fall? Or should the match be over? I don't know the answer, but I think MIAA should have some clarity on the subject.

This is already addressed in the rulebook.
FlipU4Real
Wed Feb 18 2015, 10:31AM
Registered Member #571
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 581
Sigh... need to finish reading all the comments before giving my full opinion... but I must say..

As a ref, the words "tapping out" mean nothing to me...
A wrestler is either "indicating injury", or "defaulting the match", the only other options are "faking injury", which should be penalized as unsportsmanlike conduct, or "whining" which should be ignored...

but the ref does have to err on side of caution. a) it's his first responsibility to protect, and b) less likely of a lawsuit for stopping a match too early, as opposed to too late.
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