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Why the "Bullying" theme matters to wrestling and should matter to coaches, wrestlers and supporters 
Medic5392
Wed Jan 28 2015, 04:55PM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 847
Unfortunately some folks could not understand my concern for the bullying initiative due to thinking it is not about wrestling and hence should not be on here, but the issue directly relates to wrestling and the things that wrestling builds in terms of character and accountability.

I had a very strong personality who was my coach at Lowell High, his name was George Bossie. I credit him with a lot of what I have in terms of character and resilience, but under many laws today he would be charged and possibly arrested if not at least fired. I am not talking about the extremes, but just the way he pushed his kids would be considered bullying. This will be my last post on this, but this stuff matters and it already has effect coaches in MA.

I am linking just a few articles, there are a lot more. If someone, like deepbrook for instance, wants to get philosophical, please use PM, otherwise please keep it related to wrestling. The links will illustrate why this concerns me and why it should concern coaches, wrestlers and those who love the sport and want to think long term. I apologize for not articulating this more clearly prior.

I currently just coach when I can, but if this trend continues, how many will want to in the future if they can get charged so easily? One of the articles deals with a coach in MASS, this is a wrestling issue.

[link]


[link]


[link]



Ok, horse is dead, done kicking it.


Catfish
Wed Jan 28 2015, 05:44PM
Registered Member #11436
Joined: Mon Nov 14 2011, 07:52AM
Posts: 109
I think you raised issues that are real - not politically correct - but true. I commend your integrity and your arguments stayed fact based - in the face of some emotional name calling
youthwrestlingdad
Wed Jan 28 2015, 07:22PM
Registered Member #11006
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2011, 02:32PM
Posts: 154
Catfish wrote ...

I think you raised issues that are real - not politically correct - but true. I commend your integrity and your arguments stayed fact based - in the face of some emotional name calling


I just want to make sure people are on the same page
about what the definition of bullying is. It is an overused term:

Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively dominate others. The behavior is often repeated and habitual. One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power. Behaviors used to assert such domination can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion, and such acts may be directed repeatedly towards particular targets.

Do not confuse bullying with immaturity, name calling, belittling, etc... these are bad, but BULLYING is on a whole other level. The world is full of immature jerks - kids and adults - that say and do the wrong hurtful thing....and part of growing up is dealing with this occasionally. Bullying is horrific and very much more severe.

So - making people aware of it and encouraging kids to interject or tell an adult is a good thing and should be publicized and encouraged. AND it can make a difference in a victims life. Bullying leaves scars. If you can prevent even one case, huge plus for society.

This is very very different from occasional locker room and bus stop harassment...social problems as well but not on the same level.

So there you have it....difference between a Bully and a Jerk.
RTBT'r
Wed Jan 28 2015, 10:06PM
Registered Member #10694
Joined: Thu Dec 23 2010, 10:02PM
Posts: 45
Apparently the Pink Hat Nations kids are growing up, entering high school and still deserving of a trophy with every step they take....it has nothing to do with Life Learning Lessons, it's all about the Trophy's....what a Joke
coachm
Wed Jan 28 2015, 10:28PM
Registered Member #47
Joined: Wed Mar 24 2004, 11:00PM
Posts: 389
RTBT - BINGO!
Patsfan
Wed Jan 28 2015, 10:51PM
Registered Member #4545
Joined: Sun Nov 26 2006, 06:45PM
Posts: 592
So now that the tough guys have weighed their footballs via their big bad internet talk... Can we get back to talking wrestling?
Medic5392
Thu Jan 29 2015, 06:45AM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 847
Patsfan wrote ...

So now that the tough guys have weighed their footballs via their big bad internet talk... Can we get back to talking wrestling?



Jeff, if you coach then you should see how this can have an effect on wrestling. One of those links is on the coach in MA who lost his job for alleged bullying via the parent complaining of her kid having being made to wrestle a senior and being too hard on her son. It is about wrestling. Just as rules and regulation changes that are introduced into wrestling are on the topic, so is this. It got off the rails on the other thread, but this is about wrestling and something coaches and parents need to think about or at least be aware of. There are countless cases of these kind of laws and policies via administrations being taken to the extreme and causing coaches to have their reputations tarnished, lose their jobs or just resigning in disgust.

How many people will want to coach when if they are just a volunteer and already have to not only go through background checks annually, interviews by the school and the schools administration for the city or towns schools, but then be subjected to accusations that could result in arrest or being forbidden to coach for simply pushing the kids "too hard" in one parents view? Just think about that for a minute.

Look, this is not meant to be a deep philosophical debate on things, just meant to point out that the current hysteria over bullying and the over reaction is going to have a large effect on the sport and already has influenced it in many ways. It is hard enough to get people to coach and/or teach today, this current hysteria is not helping. So, you are right, this is not about who is the better team, wrestler, program over time, etc...and you may not be interested in these laws, but I assure you that these laws and policies will have an interest in you and the sport.
coachskp
Fri Apr 10 2015, 08:42AM
Registered Member #847
Joined: Wed Dec 15 2004, 11:37AM
Posts: 912
Medic5392 wrote ...

Patsfan wrote ...

So now that the tough guys have weighed their footballs via their big bad internet talk... Can we get back to talking wrestling?



Jeff, if you coach then you should see how this can have an effect on wrestling. One of those links is on the coach in MA who lost his job for alleged bullying via the parent complaining of her kid having being made to wrestle a senior and being too hard on her son. It is about wrestling. Just as rules and regulation changes that are introduced into wrestling are on the topic, so is this. It got off the rails on the other thread, but this is about wrestling and something coaches and parents need to think about or at least be aware of. There are countless cases of these kind of laws and policies via administrations being taken to the extreme and causing coaches to have their reputations tarnished, lose their jobs or just resigning in disgust.

How many people will want to coach when if they are just a volunteer and already have to not only go through background checks annually, interviews by the school and the schools administration for the city or towns schools, but then be subjected to accusations that could result in arrest or being forbidden to coach for simply pushing the kids "too hard" in one parents view? Just think about that for a minute.

Look, this is not meant to be a deep philosophical debate on things, just meant to point out that the current hysteria over bullying and the over reaction is going to have a large effect on the sport and already has influenced it in many ways. It is hard enough to get people to coach and/or teach today, this current hysteria is not helping. So, you are right, this is not about who is the better team, wrestler, program over time, etc...and you may not be interested in these laws, but I assure you that these laws and policies will have an interest in you and the sport.


The pendulum with regard to the bullying issue has swung so far the other way that it is now nearly impossible for a coach to operate - I was told by my AD at one of our preseason meetings that if I told a kid to mop the mats and he said no, I had no recourse - None - if I then told him him that he had to do it that constituted bullying in the eyes of the MIAA
This is a disservice to the kids who will at some point (hopefully) enter the work force and be told to do something by their boss that they don't want to do - a similar response will not be forthcoming (never mind I will do it) and if they refuse to what they have been asked to do they won't have that problem long at that job
Medic5392
Fri Apr 10 2015, 03:23PM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 847
coachskp wrote ...

Medic5392 wrote ...

Patsfan wrote ...

So now that the tough guys have weighed their footballs via their big bad internet talk... Can we get back to talking wrestling?



Jeff, if you coach then you should see how this can have an effect on wrestling. One of those links is on the coach in MA who lost his job for alleged bullying via the parent complaining of her kid having being made to wrestle a senior and being too hard on her son. It is about wrestling. Just as rules and regulation changes that are introduced into wrestling are on the topic, so is this. It got off the rails on the other thread, but this is about wrestling and something coaches and parents need to think about or at least be aware of. There are countless cases of these kind of laws and policies via administrations being taken to the extreme and causing coaches to have their reputations tarnished, lose their jobs or just resigning in disgust.

How many people will want to coach when if they are just a volunteer and already have to not only go through background checks annually, interviews by the school and the schools administration for the city or towns schools, but then be subjected to accusations that could result in arrest or being forbidden to coach for simply pushing the kids "too hard" in one parents view? Just think about that for a minute.

Look, this is not meant to be a deep philosophical debate on things, just meant to point out that the current hysteria over bullying and the over reaction is going to have a large effect on the sport and already has influenced it in many ways. It is hard enough to get people to coach and/or teach today, this current hysteria is not helping. So, you are right, this is not about who is the better team, wrestler, program over time, etc...and you may not be interested in these laws, but I assure you that these laws and policies will have an interest in you and the sport.


The pendulum with regard to the bullying issue has swung so far the other way that it is now nearly impossible for a coach to operate - I was told by my AD at one of our preseason meetings that if I told a kid to mop the mats and he said no, I had no recourse - None - if I then told him him that he had to do it that constituted bullying in the eyes of the MIAA
This is a disservice to the kids who will at some point (hopefully) enter the work force and be told to do something by their boss that they don't want to do - a similar response will not be forthcoming (never mind I will do it) and if they refuse to what they have been asked to do they won't have that problem long at that job



But Coach, Patsfan said it has nothing to do with wrestling? And..and..there is a tournament to help "Pin it down!", isn't that the answer??? I thought kids were just small adults who don't need structure, boundaries, examples of hard work and the understanding that things do not always go your way in life??? Aren't there kids killing themselves in droves over not being invited to parties? Or having someone say mean things to them? Does this mean that even Title IX will be used improperly too then? I cannot fathom all this is happening.....
Patsfan
Fri Apr 10 2015, 10:24PM
Registered Member #4545
Joined: Sun Nov 26 2006, 06:45PM
Posts: 592
Hey Medic. Taking shots at me a new hobby for you bud? You don't know anything about me so how about you pump the brakes and defer your presumption to someone that fits the bill. I spent 1/4 of my life serving as Navy Corpsman on a Marine Corps base. My boys were raised in that environment and people that know me know how strict and tough I am with them and the kids I coach. I don't tolerate whining... at all. That's why they are hard nosed kids. If it's done right it's an important part of a kids upbringing.

My point to you and others is this. Read your three paragraph response to me from January above. I liked it. It was well thought out and actually made my think of the topic a little differently. Now read your response from today... All too often people come on here and seem to think by being a dick (see latest response again) that their point will resonate with the masses? In my opinion, it has the opposite effect. Personally, it just makes me say "what a dick" and the message is lost as it flows in one ear and out the other. Whereas responses like the post from January 29th provoke thought and reflection. You're not the only one who is disgusted by the "wussification" of American kids in this litigious society we now live in.. It's one of the main reasons I no longer coach football. With that being said, I think it's a safe bet that being a sarcastic dick is not going to turn it around. There's obviously wisdom in that melon. Try spreading that instead. It's much more impactful... and remember what you said last week about acting like a coach???

So you now have ample opportunitiy to try to flip my comments (past and present) against me and take some more shots. Feel free if it's going to make you feel better. In fact, feel free to give me a call 508-685-1004 if you you'd like to talk it over.

Or perhaps you're just blowing of steam and I'm reading too much into your comments...
Medic5392
Sat Apr 11 2015, 07:15AM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 847
Patsfan wrote ...

Hey Medic. Taking shots at me a new hobby for you bud? You don't know anything about me so how about you pump the brakes and defer your presumption to someone that fits the bill. I spent 1/4 of my life serving as Navy Corpsman on a Marine Corps base. My boys were raised in that environment and people that know me know how strict and tough I am with them and the kids I coach. I don't tolerate whining... at all. That's why they are hard nosed kids. If it's done right it's an important part of a kids upbringing.

My point to you and others is this. Read your three paragraph response to me from January above. I liked it. It was well thought out and actually made my think of the topic a little differently. Now read your response from today... All too often people come on here and seem to think by being a dick (see latest response again) that their point will resonate with the masses? In my opinion, it has the opposite effect. Personally, it just makes me say "what a dick" and the message is lost as it flows in one ear and out the other. Whereas responses like the post from January 29th provoke thought and reflection. You're not the only one who is disgusted by the "wussification" of American kids in this litigious society we now live in.. It's one of the main reasons I no longer coach football. With that being said, I think it's a safe bet that being a sarcastic dick is not going to turn it around. There's obviously wisdom in that melon. Try spreading that instead. It's much more impactful... and remember what you said last week about acting like a coach???

So you now have ample opportunitiy to try to flip my comments (past and present) against me and take some more shots. Feel free if it's going to make you feel better. In fact, feel free to give me a call 508-685-1004 if you you'd like to talk it over.

Or perhaps you're just blowing of steam and I'm reading too much into your comments...


Fair assessment on all your points. You're right, that was not a well thought out comment and you're reading too much into it. The point wasn't aimed at your coaching methods, it was at your repeated claims that it (Bullying Panic) had nothing to do with wrestling. I assumed (ass-u-me) that your lack of response meant more of the same due to a consistent tone in your past comments. Several others on here took the same position and that's short sighted in my view and how people don't see it when it's happening all the time is a bit frustrating. So it was a vent, was not meant the way you took it, but I apologize none the less. PM and email are in my contacts. Cheers.
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