MassWrestling.com
Welcome
Username:

Password:


Remember me

[ ]
[ ]
Online
Guests: 26, Members: 0 ...

most ever online: 859
Members: 10064
Newest: Sean Brady
Support MassWrestling. Click a link!











Forums
MassWrestling.com :: Forums :: Rule of the Day - Tips and Advice from Real Refs

Interpretation of new rule 
Fran Weir
Tue Nov 25 2014, 06:11AM
Registered Member #6215
Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:14PM
Posts: 81
I was at a college tournament this past week-end. The new stalling rule of the top wrestler dropping to the leg(s) to hold on and maintain control was inconsistantly applied. When the bottom wrestler got to standing position and the top was only holding a leg, the refs were good about calling the stalling time.
The confusion for the refs, coaches and wrestlers was when they were not standing. For example, the bottom wrestler stands up and the top wrestler drops to an ankle. The bottom wrestler is able to spin around and basically be on top without control. The top wrestler remains "in control" as long as he holds on to the ankle. Some of the refs were calling this by the new rule, others were not.
CoachB
Tue Nov 25 2014, 08:06AM
Registered Member #303
Joined: Fri Apr 09 2004, 08:24PM
Posts: 492
I am not 100% familiar with the new college rule, and we do have knowledgeable NCAA officials on here.

Without seeing the situation I can say that stalling is more difficult to call on the top man, when there is clearly "wrestling" happening. In a situation where the bottom man might score soon ("basically being on top without control") a stall call on the top man may actually prevent the bottom man from scoring points. (due to the re-start)

It is much easier to call stalling when the top man is clearly just holding on and the bottom man is just trying to escape (not reverse).

Again, this is mostly from a high school perspective.
s.shore
Sat Jan 31 2015, 02:47PM
Registered Member #14212
Joined: Fri Dec 19 2014, 10:44AM
Posts: 56
CoachB wrote ...

I am not 100% familiar with the new college rule, and we do have knowledgeable NCAA officials on here.

Without seeing the situation I can say that stalling is more difficult to call on the top man, when there is clearly "wrestling" happening. In a situation where the bottom man might score soon ("basically being on top without control") a stall call on the top man may actually prevent the bottom man from scoring points. (due to the re-start)

It is much easier to call stalling when the top man is clearly just holding on and the bottom man is just trying to escape (not reverse).

Again, this is mostly from a high school perspective.


I think the logic that needs to be applied here is the transfer of control. For instance, in the above example, when bottom wrestler gets up and tries to escape, the only thing left for the wrestler holding leg is just that...holding a leg but not really in control any more therefore a stall on the part of the wrestler holding the leg with nothing else to go on. Just as coachb pointed out it's obvious.

In the case where bottom wrestler gets up, same as above, BUT, he spins and becomes top wrestler with a "klingon" attached, same thing should apply. I see it as even more obvious as this wrestler has not just made the attempt to escape but is trying to make additional wrestling effort. Isn't this what it's all about?

So I see the wrestler holding the leg as just going for a ride, he has no control other than hope that the wrestler looking to get away finally trip. There is no benefit for me to turn around and try for additional moves as it's not going to be recognized. Penalty HAS to be enforced. No enforcement means that a wrestler can exploit the ref's confusion. I see wrestlers dragging another around the mat ALL the time. I have yet to see stalling and awarding of points to be enforced.

Stalling is being taken advantage of, coaches know it and will encourage wrestlers to exploit it as the ref's don't know how to call it or they don't want to be yelled at. Same for a stalemate. The rules state that continuos stalemates equal a stall.

Think of ignoring the 24 sec clock. When Cousy ran around with the ball it became boring, and yeah, sure you can win the game by not letting the other side get a hold of the ball!. If an ump doesn't have a good grasp of the strike zone and counts 3 balls clearly way over a players head as strikes, then fans lose interest.

As coachb said it's obvious.....however, as obvious as it looks and sounds, the call is not being made. I believe the sport will hurt further if the level of officiating isn't raised.

If a wrestler gets called for stalling, eventually he's going to have to raise his game. The overall quality of our wrestlers will benefit....and maybe, we can put a good crop of wrestlers that can actually compete against the New York's and Pennsilvania types.

Here's a link to a paper this ref wrote on stalling....he makes you think twice about the wrestler on top "clearly" in control: http://matref0.tripod.com/Articles/StallingSimple.pdf



FlipU4Real
Sat Jan 31 2015, 09:56PM
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 590
Hey.. Just FYI, when this Forum Category was set up, we were only thinking about HS rules, so I don't know if any of the college refs are monitoring it. I haven't reffed or coached college since a number of rule changes, so I can't really help here.

Just for anyone not aware, over the past few years there have been a number of college rules changes regarding stalling and fleeing the mat, with the biggest changes coming this past years, so there are some situations which are called VERY different from HS.

In HS, there are many situations where all the top guy can do is hold the ankle in a near reversal situation that I would definitely consider to be a stalemate situation... but as suggested above, I would look at a) what happened before the near reversal... did the top man drop to the ankle and try to improve, or just drop and immediately clam up, and b) how often it happens.

PH185
Tue Feb 03 2015, 11:05AM
Registered Member #7920
Joined: Fri Sep 05 2008, 11:10AM
Posts: 18
I think what you are seeing is when that bottom man comes up and spins over the top it becomes more of a scramble situation and the refs that I have noticed, moreso on tv watchiing the college matches, seem to let that scramble position go for a bit before calling a stalemate. If the bottom man comes up and the top man drops to the leg(s), they give them about a 3 count to improve their position and then get called for a stall. This is just what I have noticed.
cradleman1952
Tue Feb 03 2015, 11:12AM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1155
My biggest issue with stalling is that 3/4 of the time it only gets called in the last minute. Stalling should be called whether it happens in the last 30 seconds or the first 30 seconds. Also sometimes a kid gets nailed for stalling when he is unable to move and not unwilling. It's never an easy call but at this stage of my career I can usually see when it's about to be called or should be called. Refs have a tough job, no doubt.
CoachB
Tue Feb 03 2015, 12:06PM
Registered Member #303
Joined: Fri Apr 09 2004, 08:24PM
Posts: 492
mray wrote ...

My biggest issue with stalling is that 3/4 of the time it only gets called in the last minute. Stalling should be called whether it happens in the last 30 seconds or the first 30 seconds. Also sometimes a kid gets nailed for stalling when he is unable to move and not unwilling. It's never an easy call but at this stage of my career I can usually see when it's about to be called or should be called. Refs have a tough job, no doubt.

Yes, people need to realize that if the bottom man is "overpowered" or unable to move, he is not stalling.

Likewise, it often takes a top man more than a few seconds to grind on a guy and establish the control needed to turn a tough opponent.
s.shore
Fri Feb 13 2015, 11:43AM
Registered Member #14212
Joined: Fri Dec 19 2014, 10:44AM
Posts: 56
CoachB wrote ...

mray wrote ...

My biggest issue with stalling is that 3/4 of the time it only gets called in the last minute. Stalling should be called whether it happens in the last 30 seconds or the first 30 seconds. Also sometimes a kid gets nailed for stalling when he is unable to move and not unwilling. It's never an easy call but at this stage of my career I can usually see when it's about to be called or should be called. Refs have a tough job, no doubt.

Yes, people need to realize that if the bottom man is "overpowered" or unable to move, he is not stalling.

Likewise, it often takes a top man more than a few seconds to grind on a guy and establish the control needed to turn a tough opponent.


While there are differences in College vs HS, they are not THAT dissimilar. For instance, a pin in college pretty much requires gracing the scapula on the mat, in HS, a 2 count is required....I have tons of video showing this count being ignored. That's definitely not HS.

I'm going to paste the article on stalling that I tried to link previously but failed to link. The author is Fred Feeney, I encourage you to look him up. He details the thought's and ideas on Stalling whether in College OR in HS.

How to Understand Stalling – It’s Simple!

Stalling…the most interesting call in wrestling. I will tell you that unless you have a thorough knowledge of what stalling really is and how to recognize it, and until you are on that mat, in a situation where someone is stalling, or might be stalling, in a big match, you have no idea what the referee is thinking.

I truly believe calling stalling in a college match or a high level high school match is an art form. Most fans don't have a true grasp of the intricacies of the college or high school stall call and
what all goes into it.

It’s all about getting it right…every time, every match. Each side is yelling, the fans are yelling, this is happening, that is occurring...a thousand things at one time. I am going to try and explain stalling and how to get the call you need or want. It’s simple.

Stalling calls, be it a high level high school or a college match, are very unique situations. The score does matter, who has shot and who hasn't matters...who is pushing...who is shoving...who is working the edge..who is circling back in...who is defending a lead..who is
blocking off...who is tying up..who is riding...who is content with the score...my goodness...there is a lot to consider. In every match, depending on which corner you are in, or what side of the gym you are sitting, you will see different things and want different things based on what you know...or don’t know.

Do you know how to force a call? I don’t mean screaming from the chair or stands “what’s the bottom guy doing…or get him off the hips…or he’s backing either. It’s very simple.

Want a stall call? Shoot..move forward..work harder than the other kid...make it so apparent that the other kid is stalling that it becomes a easy call to make because it stands out.
The formula is simple: Create Action. I don’t mean circling, that isn’t a move, Or pushing someone out of bounds. Or burying your head and blocking off. Or sitting on the hips with both legs in a “working” a half. The opposite of Creating Action is… NO ACTION. Better known as…stalling. It really is a simple formula.

Force me NOT to make the call versus not doing anything and making it easy for me to make the call.

Let’s look at several common situation where stalling takes place.

First period – First minute

99.99% of the time you will not see a stall call in the first minute in the neutral position because the wrestlers are setting things up. One kid may be a lot more aggressive than the other and if he shoots and reshoots and reshoots, there will either be a lot of TD’s or counter wrestling, and counter wrestling is not stalling, unless that wrestler is content to be defensive and not offensive.

First period – Second minute (1:30 in college)

Now is when a referee is really starting to look at who is taking all shots or creating the the action. Is the one that is getting shot on backing up? Blocking off? Using the edge as protection? If neither is shooting, or creating action, the referee will usually pick one at 1:15-1:30. Timing is crucial. No other action, he will hit the other at 1:45 or so. Each has a warning. Period ends.

First period with a Takedown (TD)

A TD is what we want. A TD should lead to working towards a fall. A TD most times indicates one is more aggressive than the other. There is an old adage…..The most aggressor kid should win. Doesn’t always happen but generally it is true. Another old adage…did the right kid win? What’s that mean? It means did the kid that took the chances, who was the aggressor, and who worked harder should win the match. How that plays into stalling? It’s simple.

Green shot and got a TD. In college, he gets 1 point if he has 1 minute more riding time than his opponent at the end of the match. So, I will usually let him get his 1 min, as long as he isn’t just
not moving at all. Give me something and you will get your minute in. Then, you will usually see me hit a stalemate. Which is me saying…”ok…you have your minute…now work towards the
fall.” He gets...some "credit" for that TD. When fans or coaches start yelling about what the top guy is doing...well..he is riding the kid he just took down!

In high school, there is no riding time, so with that taken into consideration; the top kid has to work a move that will lead to attempting to turn for NF or a fall. Attempt is the key word. The top
kid doesn’t have to turn if he can’t, but he must attempt. How do you attempt? Get off the hips! Create angles! Creating angles is the key…I do not know of any way the top kid can turn a kid without creating an angle. It’s really simple.

Second period

Top man must work towards a fall, bottom man must work for an escape or reversal. Simple.

What are we looking for? Top man must work for a fall by getting off the hips and attempting to turn. Easier said than done at times of course. As I am referring, I am asking myself constantly,
who is working hard? Who is working harder than the other? Is the top man working to turn or happy to ride? Bottom man head on the mat? Question…is there a move, other than a Granby maybe that requires the head to be on the mat? Don’t think so. When I hear coaches tell their kid…”you have to move”, or “build a base”, or best one is “you can’t just lay there”. These are the same things I want to say!!! On the other hand, I am always shocked when I do hit that same kid, whether or not the coach has been verbal, when the coach wants to argue why I hit his kid. Look at what he is doing….is that what you teach? Is that how he will win this match?

Third Period

Depending on the type of match, stalling may never be a factor. With no score in the 1st period, and a quick escape and no more score in the 2nd…you will probably have an escape and possible OT match.

With no stalling calls prior…how’s it happen in the 3rd? Another old adage…”if you don’t call stalling in the first two periods. Don’t call it in the third.” I don’t agree with that. With riding time, the top guy will want to pad and protect…can’t do that. In high school, the top kid will not want the bottom kid to escape this tying the match..imagine that! Penalties are really about stopping cheating. By hanging on and not wrestling, the top guy is “cheating” and that’s why we have to
call stalling. Imagine this…that any wrestler could apply a bear hug and simply hold on tight for two minutes and win…is that fair? Of course not…that is what stalling is however...a form of bear hugging, but not just quite as obvious. It’s simple.

Defending a lead

Red has 5, green 4. With a minute to go, and one warning, I will be looking strong at Red and seeing if he is blocking, pushing, riding, circling, or anything else to attempt to defend his lead and win the match. I guarantee that I will never let a kid win a match by defending his lead and not working to score. I will recognize the stall technique and tie the match up to take it to OT.

Tied Match

I have been referring matches for almost 20 years. I will be the first to admit that in my early years, I called stalling a lot more strictly with NO consideration of the score or time left in the
match. That cost some kids wins, and championships. For that, I am sorry. That doesn’t mean at all that if a kid is stalling with 10 secs to go that I won’t or shouldn’t make that touch stall call. I have and will. If you are backing out, fleeing and just flat out stop wrestling…you will lose. Also..when that kids mom yells, “Hey ref…my kid is stalling! That doesn’t happen too often however.

Overtime

In the 1st 1 minute overtime….you need to score a TD to win. Simple. If one already has a stall call, he has to be alert to another. I guarantee the other coaches will know it and will say “He has a stall call..push him”

To get a stall call in OT, it must be OBVIOUS, or better put…it is such a simple call when it occurs..because it is so OBVIOUS. Depending on the time, you get a 1 point led with less than 30 left...you really have to be running backwards or fleeing to get that second call. If you haven't been warned yet....you might get that warning call...but rarely...would there be a second in less than 30 sec.

Other OT Periods

Be it high school or college, the first call will always be a stalemate. That’s the rule. If the same kid does the same thing again, tie up to the ankle, hanging on to a leg, deep waist and ankle
etc…depending on the time, you are subject to a stall call to lose. I will tell you that time is a factor when spacing out calls.
The First Warning Call Imagine this, your kid is winning 11-3. Third period, 1:30 left. The referee hits your kid who is on top. You say, “How is that even possible?” Easy…it’s only a warning! More political than anything else to be honest.

It's not in the rule book...but the aggressor should win the match. Doesn't always happen..because of sloppy throws etc, but overall...the kid that truly is the aggressor should win the match. If a kid is wining by 5-6-7 points, he truly has been the aggressor....can he still be hit
with a warning if he slows down...might....but I doubt it goes any further than that.

How To Get a Stall Call – Simplified

Neutral – Move forward, shoot, work towards the middle, shoot again and again. Make the referee see that only your kid is working. Make it easy for the referee to make the call. Give him a reason to make the call. I have had kids lose a match because they were down a point and the other kid had a warning, but the kid losing did NOTHING to force the call. Force the referee not by screaming for a call, but by coaching your kid to be more aggressive…it will pay dividends.

Top

Your kid is on top….he is down by one or two and needs a turn. The bottom kid never ever has to give up position, but he must open up and work to get out. The problem for the bottom kid is by working to get out, he might get turned….simple uh? Bottom guy can’t lock up. Can’t bury his head, and ball up. So force the referee to make the call by getting off the hips, show the referee that even with no pressure, the bottom is doing nothing. Simple!

The other thing is if you can’t turn them..kick them and work for the stall call by being more aggressive and forcing the call as I speak to above. Simple

Bottom

Your kid needs to get out. Top kid is hanging on for dear life to win by one. How do you get this call? Work! Work harder than the top kid to show that he isn’t countering your kids move but rather just hanging on.

Ever really tried to get out with a kid on top of you with legs in cranking on your shoulder? It is tough and I understand that. Biggest indication that a stall call is coming is when the bottom
man has his head down and clamps up.

Make it so apparent, that even a blind referee can see it. Simple

Keys to Getting the Stall Call

1.Be more aggressive than the other kid
2.Stay in bounds
3.Work towards the middle
4.Create Angles

Things You May Not Know

• Circling is not a move
• A knee tap is not a shot
• Going from the middle of the mat backwards to the edge is not “setting up a move”
• This is not Greco – Head down, butt out is blocking
• A collar tie is not a shot or is it “working”
• Double legs in and stretching is not turning
• Head on the mat is …sleeping

Each wrestler has the responsibility to make an honest effort to make sure that action is maintained throughout the entire match by wrestling aggressively, whether in the neutral, offensive, or defensive position. Each wrester must continually try and improve their position.

Stalling, in its purest sense, is an extremely easy call…depending on where you are seated. On the other hand, it exists in the minds and eyes of a certain segment of onlookers while it perplexes others watching the same match. How can that be? Multiple factors distinguish between actions used to initiate wrestling versus action used to avoid wrestling. The capability and capacity to distinguish those elements that lead to stalling comes with time and experience.

I love officiating. I love the intensity. Until you do it, you will never know the exhilaration of what it is like calling a NCAA D1 match or a high level high school match. When I walk onto a mat, I know there aren't very many that can do what I am about to do, at the level I
do it. Everyone makes mistakes....I strive with every atom in my body not to make even one in any given match.

D1 college wrestlers down to 7th grade middle school wrestlers work their butts off to step onto that mat and compete. I and every other referee owes them the highest level of expertise we can muster..to be in the proper position at all times, know the rules, know the criteria, and practice perfect mechanics. Coaches work just as hard to get their kids ready to step onto that mat. They expect perfection. It truly is…that simple.

Perfection consists not in doing extraordinary things, but in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well.

About the author, Frederick Feeney: Fred, a long time Ohio wrestling official, is a certified OHSAA instructor and is a member of the Central Ohio Wrestling Officials Association, the Collegiate Wrestling Officials Association and the National Wrestling Officials Association. Fred has been named the “Official of the Year” multiple times in both CDWCA and the CWOA. Fred is also is a moderator on a popular national wrestling discussion forum. Fred's in-depth experience encompasses both scholastic and collegiate levels, having culminated with numerous assignments at the OHSAA State Tournament, the NWCA National Duals and both the NCAA Division II and III finals.

Fred and his wife reside in Dublin, Ohio.
FlipU4Real
Fri Feb 13 2015, 01:53PM
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 590
Great advice from the star of Foxcatcher!!
s.shore
Fri Feb 13 2015, 02:08PM
Registered Member #14212
Joined: Fri Dec 19 2014, 10:44AM
Posts: 56
FlipU4Real wrote ...

Great advice from the star of Foxcatcher!!


OMG! I didn't even realize it was him... I haven't seen the movie yet....Gonna have to get it now!
mrvinny
Fri Feb 13 2015, 02:45PM
Registered Member #1814
Joined: Wed Mar 02 2005, 12:17PM
Posts: 269
That was one of the most informative posts I have ever seen and I have been on this form for many years
Thanks!
FlipU4Real
Sat Feb 14 2015, 01:36PM
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 590
ok, star might have been a stretch!
Go to page:          << Previous thread | Next thread >>

Jump:     Back to top



Moderators: Mike Atlas, FlipU4Real, matchamp99
Click to see our RSS feeds available -->
Recent Wrestling Boxscores
see all | submit | rss

12/13/2017----------
Newton North-40
Needham-22
12/13/2017----------
Weymouth-36
Brookline-31
12/13/2017----------
Wellesley-57
Norwood-18
Newest Posts
Milford Souhegan Tournament Results
12/9/17Brackets: http://www.masswrestling.com...
Posted by Shvarts
Dec 14 17 : 12:04

Re: Massachusetts to College Wrestling
I mean the state schools and New England scho...
Posted by MrBlastdoubles
Dec 14 17 : 11:59

Massachusetts to College Wrestling
Settling a bet here, so your input appreciate...
Posted by Ironfrog
Dec 14 17 : 10:49

Re: Tomahawk Throwdown-UNH-12/17/17
ATTENTION ALL YOUTH WRESTLERSThis weekend is ...
Posted by amack603
Dec 14 17 : 06:40

Lehigh & Jordan Kutler put "weighty matters" in the past
Weight management has always been a very impo...
Posted by Chicken Wing Coach
Dec 13 17 : 18:38

Re: 2017-2018 Youth Tournament Schedule
Warwick PAL - Misty Strong Wrestling Tourname...
Posted by mmcgrew
Dec 13 17 : 12:39

volunteer or paid position
I am looking for a volunteer or paid wrestlin...
Posted by nb135
Dec 13 17 : 10:53

Support MassWrestling. Click a link!