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2 meets one day not allowed  Go to page  [1] 2
sjp
Thu Sep 18 2014, 08:52PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 636
Coaches teams have twenty dates.
In past coaches would use the extra dates not used & send a B team to a different location.
This was discussed in spring meeting at MIAA.
It was ruled that that is an MIAA violation.
Teams cannot be split squaded.
You can be at a meet & enter as many there. Quad or individual.
But you cannot send one unit one varsity meet & a second unit to a second varsity meet.

Example sending guys to Lowell Holiday then others either to a one day tournament/dual.
This is a violation. ...

Also teams can only wrestle 4 dual meets in a day.
Teams cannot wrestle 5 meets in a day.
This was done several times last year & it is a violation of MIAA rules.

I know coaches will say that they put back ups in so wrestlers only wrestle 4 matches. That was my rebuttal. Committee stated TEAM cannot wrestle in more than 4 dual meets in one day.

Figured get this out now while coaches making schedules.
coachm
Thu Sep 18 2014, 09:51PM
Registered Member #47
Joined: Wed Mar 24 2004, 11:00PM
Posts: 389
This isn't on you coach, I know you are out to make the state better, and I know that you also always vote for the safety of the kids first, but Mass never does anything to allow it's teams to become more competitive on the national stage. It's a great testament to the kids from Mass that have become nationally recognized in spite of the limits imposed. It's tough to watch neighboring states have b teams and jv teams at different sites, off-season coaching year round, and no cap on minutes or matches wrestled and not believe that it gives them a competitive edge.

Again, not directing it towards you, just putting it out there.

My two cents for what it's worth.
Medic5392
Fri Sep 19 2014, 04:32AM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 841
How can this be changed? It would seem that the rules are too strict and that this is not going to help anyone or protect anyone in the future. So, how can those rules be changed?

I help out down in VA and it is very different down here, there is no reason that MA cannot and should not adapt. Has anyone made the argument to change and if so, what was the reply that the MIAA gave to not change?
FMS
Fri Sep 19 2014, 06:46AM
Registered Member #156
Joined: Sat Mar 27 2004, 08:20AM
Posts: 527
Can your team's JV wrestle at a separate JV event (tourney or "dual") with other JV's?

Massachusetts has really limited the JV opportunities and therefore the sustained interest for many teams. I know that if there were more JV specific events my team could maintain more interest among a larger group of students... Good for the sport and growing up in NY I recall it being a bigger deal if you started on the JV team for a strong program. We had JV counties and dual meets. I haven't heard of either here in Massachusetts.
OACoach
Fri Sep 19 2014, 07:00AM
Registered Member #6261
Joined: Sun Aug 26 2007, 11:58AM
Posts: 335
JV events are not recognized by the MIAA so yes a JV squad could be at a different all JV event from the varsity program.
sjp
Fri Sep 19 2014, 06:46PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 636
Coach m
I argued in favor of allowing split squads.
In past (against blue book) I had it alliwed in past. Burlington sent guys to Woburn & NY eastern states. North Andover for a frw years.

It was brought to attention of MIAA committee. It was discussed in length then.ended w blue book doesnt allow it so cannot be done. I have one vote/ 1 say.

Ive never stopped or been against exposure of our wrestlers or competing. All in favor of more schools & individuals competing.

Morning weigh ins were also discussed & discussion held to keep the practice for the betterment of the student athlete.

PS Im having trouble filling dates w my varsity let alone a B team. Scheduling never easy.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news guys but had to get it out there.
Chicken Wing Coach
Fri Sep 19 2014, 07:44PM

Joined: Tue Apr 01 2008, 05:15PM
Posts: 3722
"sjp" wrote:
"Morning weigh ins were also discussed & discussion held to keep the practice for the betterment of the student athlete."

I do NOT agree & never will! Here's the separate Forum Thread post on the issue: Wednesday Morning "Scratch" Weigh-Ins? [link]
sjp
Sat Sep 20 2014, 06:51AM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 636
Ken what was said at the meeting was that morning weigh-ins allows MA wrestlers to make weight in the morning prior to school & then be able to eat a solid lunch during the school day.
When this was implemented many many years ago it was done for the intention of keeping the student/athlete focused on their academics.
"holding weight" all day didn't allow some to eat or drink, thus affecting their academics.

The committee felt that coaches/athletes are morally/ethical & that the good out weighed the bad. Wrestlers not having to hold weight all day and being able to eat lunch helps the athletes. They are in school to learn first & foremost.

Not as many wrestlers cut weight as in the past.

What is brought up is that teams don't perform the morning weigh-ins or wrestlers are not making the weight in the AM. That is a whole different discussion.
BCHWrestling
Sat Sep 20 2014, 10:25AM
Registered Member #11329
Joined: Mon Jun 06 2011, 03:47PM
Posts: 60
I am looking to set up a JV schedule for the upcoming season. Given the "2 meets in 1 day not allowed" rule, would there be any other teams interested in setting up JV only events throughout the season. Ideally, these events would include duals and quads. They would be run like a varsity meet with weigh ins and a match scoring at the 14 weight classes, followed by exhibition matches for any JV's who may not have gotten a match. If there are any teams that have the numbers/interest in setting up some dates let me know. My email is -email- . Thanks!

-Coach Grant Heller
BC High Wrestling
Medic5392
Sat Sep 20 2014, 01:25PM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 841
sjp wrote ...

Coach m
I argued in favor of allowing split squads.
In past (against blue book) I had it alliwed in past. Burlington sent guys to Woburn & NY eastern states. North Andover for a frw years.

It was brought to attention of MIAA committee. It was discussed in length then.ended w blue book doesnt allow it so cannot be done. I have one vote/ 1 say.

Ive never stopped or been against exposure of our wrestlers or competing. All in favor of more schools & individuals competing.

Morning weigh ins were also discussed & discussion held to keep the practice for the betterment of the student athlete.

PS Im having trouble filling dates w my varsity let alone a B team. Scheduling never easy.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news guys but had to get it out there.


But how does it get changed? I get that you have a tough time filling up dates, but the option should be there for teams to be able to do that in much the same way that NH and VT do. We are only short changing the kids and I can think of no rational reason to do this, so what was the reason given?
sjp
Sat Sep 20 2014, 04:55PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 636
Medic in no sport does a school get to have 2 teams compete at varsity.
They have JV & freshman levels.

Soccer carry 25 & 11 c field. Sometimes back ups sub in, just like happens in a wuad meet.

I know some states allow it but would like to c the number.
some states have JV dual meet schedules.

Most teams r trying to fill line ups not many have the luxury of two thtee line ups.
others on team need to wrestle sub varsity matches. Attend quads & get them matches. A lot of those kids dont get many matches because of their or their coaches choice. I c a lot of meets w a JV mat so they do get opportunities.

Someone i believe saud this stops opportunities for our better wrestlers. I would say better wrestlers r starting in a line up. Others will get chance iver time. But until then they have opportunities @JV level.

I dont c this changing @MIAA level considering teams have been doing it for several years & due to it being seen on internet came to authorities attention & committee said cease the practice. There was discussion I argued the point it had been allowed & provided opportunities. It was denied.

To get rules changes coach/school needs to request.
N Andover has been doing it for a few years. Principal on committee she didnt argue the rule at the meeting once she saw it in writing.
Medic5392
Sun Sep 21 2014, 08:15PM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 841
sjp wrote ...

Medic in no sport does a school get to have 2 teams compete at varsity.
They have JV & freshman levels.

Soccer carry 25 & 11 c field. Sometimes back ups sub in, just like happens in a wuad meet.

I know some states allow it but would like to c the number.
some states have JV dual meet schedules.

Most teams r trying to fill line ups not many have the luxury of two thtee line ups.
others on team need to wrestle sub varsity matches. Attend quads & get them matches. A lot of those kids dont get many matches because of their or their coaches choice. I c a lot of meets w a JV mat so they do get opportunities.

Someone i believe saud this stops opportunities for our better wrestlers. I would say better wrestlers r starting in a line up. Others will get chance iver time. But until then they have opportunities @JV level.

I dont c this changing @MIAA level considering teams have been doing it for several years & due to it being seen on internet came to authorities attention & committee said cease the practice. There was discussion I argued the point it had been allowed & provided opportunities. It was denied.

To get rules changes coach/school needs to request.
N Andover has been doing it for a few years. Principal on committee she didnt argue the rule at the meeting once she saw it in writing.


It is not about what the other sports do, nor should it. If they want it they should argue for it, just as if we want it we should push for it. The one size fits all model doesn't always work out for the best.

"I would say better wrestlers r starting in a line up. Others will get chance iver time. But until then they have opportunities @JV level."-Strongly disagree with you on this point coach. If a JV kid gets that kind of exposure against varsity kids it makes a difference and it shows in teams like Timberlane, Danbury and MAU. Everyone knows it makes a difference if a younger kid also has the opportunity to wrestle for a Varsity Trophy at a tournament and not a JV one that does not carry that much weight. It is like a back up on a D1 team wrestling in an open tournament, the experience and opportunity are invaluable. We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time with little things, but it is what it is I guess.
pzacchilli
Mon Sep 22 2014, 10:56AM
Registered Member #13031
Joined: Thu Jan 31 2013, 10:06AM
Posts: 95
I think they got it right this time. Its nice to know that this rule which has always been in place will finally be enforced
Shvarts
Mon Sep 22 2014, 11:44AM

Joined: Wed Mar 24 2004, 10:28PM
Posts: 218
pzacchilli wrote ...

I think they got it right this time. Its nice to know that this rule which has always been in place will finally be enforced


This rule wasn't always in place, people on this board always just assumed it was. In 2007 we were sending 6 kids to the Eastern States in NY, we wanted to send the rest of our varsity team to wrestle at the Woburn tournament that same day. I couldn't find anything in the MIAA blue book that said this wasn't allowed but we double checked. We sent an email to Manny who forwarded it to the MIAA and we got a response from 3-4 of the MIAA higher ups (including your father) who said this was perfectly fine but it would count as 2 dates.
Since then we've done this whenever it fit our team and schedule.

We've never had big teams but this was a huge benefit to us when we had great wrestlers. We could send our elite wrestlers to tournaments in PA or NY so they would get top competition and noticed by college coaches that they weren't getting in New England and we could take everyone else to a local tournament. Now if we want to go to an elite, out of state tournament we have to give the majority of our team the weekend off.

I heard that people were complaining about teams like North Andover splitting up their team and going to 2 different varsity tournaments in a weekend. The complaint was that this gave teams an unfair advantage by getting twice as many kids top level competition.

My thought is if you have a team that is strong enough to field 2 varsity lineups you should be allowed to split your squad, it keeps more kids interested and increases the level of wrestling which is what I thought we were trying to do.

Now I see a lot of tournaments that allow more than 1 wrestler per team per weight, these extras are non scores but isn't that the same as splitting your team?

I still don't see anything in the Blue Book stating this isn't allowed (maybe I'm missing it) but I still haven't heard a good reason why this has been legal for the past 7 years and now is not.
Medic5392
Wed Sep 24 2014, 06:08AM
Registered Member #6539
Joined: Tue Dec 11 2007, 04:11PM
Posts: 841
pzacchilli wrote ...

I think they got it right this time. Its nice to know that this rule which has always been in place will finally be enforced



What is right about it? When you a have stand alone rule that are meant well, they often do not have a large effect, but when you have multiple "well intentioned" rules they have a compounded effect that is counter-productive. What does this rule do that is positive for the sport? Add in the process to compete out of state, clubs, etc...and it adds up to being counter-productive and does little to nothing for the kids in terms of making them better.

So, really, tell me the positive points on this rule outside of it taking away an advantage that schools with deep programs could have from being able to compete with split teams?
dnowa
Wed Sep 24 2014, 08:49AM
Registered Member #4263
Joined: Tue Aug 22 2006, 09:45AM
Posts: 115
CT has also been dealing with this matter, and currently will allow a team to send varsity wrestlers to two different competitions...but both events count toward season limits (total # of dates not to exceed 18), multi-team competition limits (no more than 8 of 18 may be multi-team) and weekly limits (so you would not be able to have a dual meet that week, as no more than 2 dates per week).
pzacchilli
Thu Sep 25 2014, 09:33AM
Registered Member #13031
Joined: Thu Jan 31 2013, 10:06AM
Posts: 95
36.2
Sub-varsity multi-school events are not allowed. Exception: Track, Volleyball, Wrestling, and Cross Country sub-varsity multi-school meets may be considered for approval unless (1) a team champion or winner is determined, or (2) the meet is advertised as a tournament or championship.

No sub-varsity competition in cross country, track, volleyball or wrestling, or any event which combines sub-varsity with varsity level competition, will be approved which seems to establish champions or which provides competitors with any award and/or recognition not provided to all other participants equally.

82.2.4 A double dual, triangular, quadrangular or tournament meet must be scheduled on a day preceding a non-school day, i.e., Friday, Saturday, the day before a vacation or holiday, or during school vacation periods. (MLK Day)

82.2.6 Approval for a multi-school event must be obtained for any in-season tournament competition. A two day tournament will count as 2 of the 20 days allowed for competition.

I love how our sport often ignores the MIAA handbook...and then blames the MIAA for disagreements on many interpretations and things that we cannot get passed (ie Dual Meet Tourny)

Truth and loyalty are the most important pieces to a healthy and strong relationship. can't understand why we are not treated fairly by the powers at be when at the same time we are ignoring rules that are in place.

......

Then, we complain about how our sport never gets the coverage it deserves and the kids and teams never get recognized as much as other sports, and there are not as many fans at our matches, or not as much community support, why doesn't wrestling get the fan and media drawing of say basketball.

Well we want all that, but then we throw JVs into our varsity events, and we say well our sport is different so we treat it differently...and yet still complain about the lack of interest from our athletes, fans, media, and community.

Huh, funny how things work
Shvarts
Thu Sep 25 2014, 12:10PM

Joined: Wed Mar 24 2004, 10:28PM
Posts: 218
pzacchilli wrote ...

36.2
Sub-varsity multi-school events are not allowed. Exception: Track, Volleyball, Wrestling, and Cross Country sub-varsity multi-school meets may be considered for approval unless (1) a team champion or winner is determined, or (2) the meet is advertised as a tournament or championship.

No sub-varsity competition in cross country, track, volleyball or wrestling, or any event which combines sub-varsity with varsity level competition, will be approved which seems to establish champions or which provides competitors with any award and/or recognition not provided to all other participants equally.

82.2.4 A double dual, triangular, quadrangular or tournament meet must be scheduled on a day preceding a non-school day, i.e., Friday, Saturday, the day before a vacation or holiday, or during school vacation periods. (MLK Day)

82.2.6 Approval for a multi-school event must be obtained for any in-season tournament competition. A two day tournament will count as 2 of the 20 days allowed for competition.

I love how our sport often ignores the MIAA handbook...and then blames the MIAA for disagreements on many interpretations and things that we cannot get passed (ie Dual Meet Tourny)

Truth and loyalty are the most important pieces to a healthy and strong relationship. can't understand why we are not treated fairly by the powers at be when at the same time we are ignoring rules that are in place.

......

Then, we complain about how our sport never gets the coverage it deserves and the kids and teams never get recognized as much as other sports, and there are not as many fans at our matches, or not as much community support, why doesn't wrestling get the fan and media drawing of say basketball.

Well we want all that, but then we throw JVs into our varsity events, and we say well our sport is different so we treat it differently...and yet still complain about the lack of interest from our athletes, fans, media, and community.

Huh, funny how things work


So where does it say you can't split your team and send it to 2 different events on the same day?
sjp
Thu Sep 25 2014, 03:37PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 636
82.2.1 Member schools shall not schedule or compete on more than 20 days of competition w 24 minutes max amount of time student may compete on a given day.

82.2.5 Double dual, triangular or quadrangular meet or one day individual tournament will count as a day of competition.

These rules state you have 20 days of competition & spells out what constitutes a day.

Team can only do one of these on a calendar date.

The old schedule prior to all-state tournaments allowed an additional week pf competition thus the 20 dates. Never changed the amount of dates, just in case they added week to schedule down the road. That is why most teams use 17-18 dates in a season.

When this happened teams wanted to use the other dates to send to other meets (Split squading). It had been allowed several years ago and new person in charge when found out that had been done this past season stated that per rule it is not allowed. try siting past practice, it was agreed upon by members that rule does not allow for multi events on a date other than those in writing, so that is all that would be allowed.

A team cannot wrestle twice (meaning two venues on the same day, the meet would have to be in the same building).

Also it states can only wrestle dual, tri or quad. So the max amount of duals in one day is 4.....Teams are not allowed to wrestle 5 dual meets in a day. This was done last year & discussed at spring meeting. It is a violation & if caught by rule is a suspension of that team.

Hope this clears up the matter.
I know everyone has an opinion on this matter, but as of 2014/15 season this is how the wrestling committee has viewed the rule & what teams will be held to.

All wrestlers not competing in one of the events above (dual, tri quad or individual tournament are allowed to compete in a sub varsity contest). So all on a team are allowed to wrestle on a day.
sjp
Thu Sep 25 2014, 03:43PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 636
Sorry not so clear with the 4 duals in a day.
24 minute rule adds to that. Wrestler can only wrestle 24 minutes, that is 4 meets.

One can argue sitting guys & entering others into line-up so all only get 4 matches. Then one could argue on quad allowed so 3 dual meets. I will review notes.
coachramos
Thu Sep 25 2014, 08:41PM
Registered Member #11473
Joined: Mon Dec 19 2011, 10:29AM
Posts: 28
Can an individual tournament have an A and B team entered? What if an out of state team enters a mass tournament with an A and B squad?
pzacchilli
Thu Sep 25 2014, 09:09PM
Registered Member #13031
Joined: Thu Jan 31 2013, 10:06AM
Posts: 95
No sub-varsity competition in cross country, track, volleyball or wrestling, or any event which combines sub-varsity with varsity level competition, will be approved which seems to establish champions or which provides competitors with any award and/or recognition not provided to all other participants equally.

...so no
pzacchilli
Thu Sep 25 2014, 09:12PM
Registered Member #13031
Joined: Thu Jan 31 2013, 10:06AM
Posts: 95
a B team is a JV team and a B wrestler is a JV wrestler otherwise he would be varsity (A). There is no such thing as a B team
coachramos
Thu Sep 25 2014, 09:14PM
Registered Member #11473
Joined: Mon Dec 19 2011, 10:29AM
Posts: 28
So if a kid in track or swimming has a state qualifying time but he is not as fast as the varsity kid he can't go to states?
sjp
Thu Sep 25 2014, 10:35PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 636
I will ask next week about individual tournaments allowing more than one wrestler from a school. Regular season of course.
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