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MassWrestling.com :: Forums :: New England Wrestling

New Englands Day 1  Go to page  1 2 3 [4]
Carlascooz
Mon Mar 04 2013, 05:24PM
Registered Member #11519
Joined: Sun Jan 22 2012, 09:43PM
Posts: 254
eoghanjames wrote ...

If you let him up you have on some level given in to the notion that you can't pin your man so you take the lesser road to a win


I'd much rather see some slickster super-duck his opponent a few times rather than hanging on for dear life hoping to catch his guy in a cradle.
cradleman1952
Mon Mar 04 2013, 06:00PM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1155
eoghanjames wrote ...

About the point thing: I choose not to look at it as a point NOT earned as much as a point "given" away by the aggressor or dominant wrestler from the top position - you then apply this - why let him up? the idea is to pin him or at least it should be. If you let him up you have on some level given in to the notion that you can't pin your man so you take the lesser road to a win - that is why they award a point in this country in folkstyle, I think. I do not like to coach, "let him up and take him down", unless the kid I am coaching is just not a good mat wrestler and I just can't turn him into one...but you better believe I WANT him to be a good mat wrestler as this is the "ultimate" goal for me as a coach...This is one of the reasons why PA is so good and it has to do with philosophy, not semantics (no slight intended flip - as I value many of the points you make) but I kind of hate let em up and take em down...it waters down our sport IMO...three team points for a win and six for a pin - nothing else should count...4/5 team points for lesser victories? ppppuuuu...I spit on them

You happy now Ray? Get some sleep my friend and take ALL your pills at med time


Thanks. I'm all better now. I do understand the strategy part but I'm with you on the ultimate in wrestling......The Fall and not the freakin "Pinfall".
xbmhswrestler
Mon Mar 04 2013, 06:44PM
Registered Member #2918
Joined: Fri Dec 30 2005, 11:12AM
Posts: 583
fan4life wrote ...

xbmhswrestler wrote ...

fan4life wrote ...

Riter wrote ...

I don't know what the current criteria is for this because past rankings have gone either way aftwr new englands. I have to put my two cents in however. If an all state or state champ was beaten in new englands head to head by a wrestler they previously beat that wrestler should be ranked ahead of the champion, i.e. ryan beat derosa in NE and Fritz beat Viruet. If a wrester avenged themselves in NE it should recognized.


Yes, I agree. Especially, if the loser at all states has a 3-1 record for the year against the all states winner. I believe this is the case with Fritz and Viruet.



Where do you draw the line? DeRosa and Ryan were 2-2 against each other. So Ryan beat him in NE's...Ryan should be ahead of him in the rankings? DeRosa beat Mui at NE's last year....he was 1-0 agains Mui....should he have been reanked ahead of Mui?

I think you have to keep the rule. The best guy on the day of the states should be kept in the #1 spot.


What rule? I agree, DeRosa vs. Ryan is less obvious as are other some other cases.

However, I don't think you can take the guy who wins on that day and rule out all other factors if it includes a loss to the same guy one week later during the same hs. wrestling season. See O'boyle and Sughrue from 2012 final rankings. Sughrue beat O'boyle at all states but O'boyle beat him a week later at New Englands. O'boyle was the OW at New Englands and was ranked #1 at 126 in the final rankings from this site.







Maybe i'm mistaken...but the results at All states are the final top 6? no? I could be wrong but I thought that's how it worked. I completely agree it should be done case by case...but I don't think you can say that because they won a week later...they should be ranked higher. There are too many cases where that doesn't work. DeRosa/Mui last year for instance.
xbmhswrestler
Mon Mar 04 2013, 06:50PM
Registered Member #2918
Joined: Fri Dec 30 2005, 11:12AM
Posts: 583
FlipU4Real wrote ...

xbmhswrestler wrote ...

wow...gainful pointage...said twice.

Listen whether you let them up or not...it's a point. There's a reason they were let up and it was for an advantage by the person who let them up. If the score is 9-1...then you had 1 point scored against you. Sheesh. Really with this converstaion?


Poor form!!! you can't offer your opinion and then question the conversation!! oh wait, you can, and just did...

It is a silly conversation, and it IS semantics (the best of course by Carla and her ....)

Wrestler A enters a tournament... Wins every match 1-0, He was unscored on in the tournament..
Wrestler B enters a tournament... Cuts his opponent a couple times and wins every match 17-2.
Who's more dominant? You'd really say that Wrestler B was scored on? Ludicrous!!

If I walk up to you and hand you an apple.. did you earn the apple? What does the word earn mean? In wrestling, we often say that every point awarded is earned..

So maybe we can't say no one scored a point on this guy, but we can say no one earned a point against him (if that's the case, i have no idea), as long as we clarify which definition of the earn we are using...

I cant beleev you wood come on here and try to take away from what the kid earned!!!


Uhmm..yeah...wrestler b was scored on. he had two points against him. We weren't talking about dominance... Someone get me outta this...plz.
High Crotch City
Mon Mar 04 2013, 06:55PM
Registered Member #11502
Joined: Thu Jan 19 2012, 11:49PM
Posts: 5
Why does everyone on Masswrestling these days have to argue against a kid's accomplishments? Why can't you just think about how great of a season Labrie had and commend him for it? Seems to be the norm these days on this site.
Rmallane
Mon Mar 04 2013, 07:54PM
Registered Member #13032
Joined: Thu Jan 31 2013, 10:50AM
Posts: 16
Point or no point. Are you kidding me C Labrie had an unbelievable season.
Are we sure that point wasn't for locking hands or illegal headlock.
Either way who cares!!!!
Carlascooz
Mon Mar 04 2013, 08:15PM
Registered Member #11519
Joined: Sun Jan 22 2012, 09:43PM
Posts: 254
xbmhswrestler wrote ...

Someone get me outta this...plz.


Does your browser window not have one of those little "x"s in the upper-right hand corner?

jubele135
Mon Mar 04 2013, 08:51PM

Joined: Sun Apr 11 2004, 09:40AM
Posts: 83
eoghanjames wrote ...

About the point thing: I choose not to look at it as a point NOT earned as much as a point "given" away by the aggressor or dominant wrestler from the top position - you then apply this - why let him up? the idea is to pin him or at least it should be. If you let him up you have on some level given in to the notion that you can't pin your man so you take the lesser road to a win - that is why they award a point in this country in folkstyle, I think. I do not like to coach, "let him up and take him down", unless the kid I am coaching is just not a good mat wrestler and I just can't turn him into one...but you better believe I WANT him to be a good mat wrestler as this is the "ultimate" goal for me as a coach...This is one of the reasons why PA is so good and it has to do with philosophy, not semantics (no slight intended flip - as I value many of the points you make) but I kind of hate let em up and take em down...it waters down our sport IMO...three team points for a win and six for a pin - nothing else should count...4/5 team points for lesser victories? ppppuuuu...I spit on them

You happy now Ray? Get some sleep my friend and take ALL your pills at med time




I agree that the ultimate goal is to pin, but I kind of disagree with the outlook on take em down let em up... I coached a wrestler for a couple of years that graduated last year and he had so many matches where he went out in the 1st period and got a takedown, tried to turn and ended the period up 2-0, and walked away with a 5-0 decision. He would completely dominate and control the match but still only score 3 team points. He wasn't bad on top but when the score is 2-0 your opponent is still in the match and it's a lot easier to turn someone when they're mentally broken. His best position was neutral so we started having him do take em down let em up- not to avoid going for the pin, but as a way to get the pin. He would get multiple takedowns and mentally break the guy, and as a result he got WAY more pins from turns, taking him down straight to his back, etc. When a guy gets taken down 4 or 5 times in the first period, he is not going to be putting up the same fight that he would if it was a close 2-0 match.

There are quite a few guys that I can think of that used this strategy in order to break their opponents and get more bonus points as a result. If Labrie let someone up then technically he did give up points, but I would say that he did not give up any "offensive points" and that is still a pretty amazing accomplishment.
fan4life
Mon Mar 04 2013, 09:06PM
Registered Member #11496
Joined: Thu Jan 19 2012, 09:30AM
Posts: 99

[/quote1362443988]

Maybe i'm mistaken...but the results at All states are the final top 6? no? I could be wrong but I thought that's how it worked. I completely agree it should be done case by case...but I don't think you can say that because they won a week later...they should be ranked higher. There are too many cases where that doesn't work. DeRosa/Mui last year for instance.
[/quote1362452623]

I think we are in agreement. Winning the last match is not an automatic higher ranking. However, it does warrant a look at the larger picture.

FlipU4Real
Mon Mar 04 2013, 09:08PM
Registered Member #571
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 590
mray wrote ...

FlipU4Real wrote ...

xbmhswrestler wrote ...

wow...gainful pointage...said twice.

Listen whether you let them up or not...it's a point. There's a reason they were let up and it was for an advantage by the person who let them up. If the score is 9-1...then you had 1 point scored against you. Sheesh. Really with this converstaion?


Poor form!!! you can't offer your opinion and then question the conversation!! oh wait, you can, and just did...

It is a silly conversation, and it IS semantics (the best of course by Carla and her ....)

Wrestler A enters a tournament... Wins every match 1-0, He was unscored on in the tournament..
Wrestler B enters a tournament... Cuts his opponent a couple times and wins every match 17-2.
Who's more dominant? You'd really say that Wrestler B was scored on? Ludicrous!!

If I walk up to you and hand you an apple.. did you earn the apple? What does the word earn mean? In wrestling, we often say that every point awarded is earned..

So maybe we can't say no one scored a point on this guy, but we can say no one earned a point against him (if that's the case, i have no idea), as long as we clarify which definition of the earn we are using...

I cant beleev you wood come on here and try to take away from what the kid earned!!!


No one is taking anything away from the kid. It was only stated that a point is a point. It doesn't matter how that point is scored , it is just a point. But trying to explain something to someone who just doesn't get it , is like trying to swim up Niagra Falls. Neither one is going to happen. So keep on Flippin.


Hey Ray... i should have used some kind of emoticon. Assumed it would be clear to all (with my awesome spelling)that the last line was super sarcastic.. That's one of the most annoying things on here.. when people throw the "you're trying to take away the kids accomplishments" line into the argument, so I was just playing with that.

Anyway, I'm assuming this is not a point either of us care about the answer, just arguing because we're stubborn. You think I don't get it, I think you don't get it.. and (my fault) we're wasting people's time who are reading this.

G'night!


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