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MassWrestling.com :: Forums :: New England Wrestling

New Englands Day 1  Go to page  1 2 [3] 4
Back_Points
Sun Mar 03 2013, 10:57AM
Registered Member #11199
Joined: Wed Mar 02 2011, 08:57AM
Posts: 28
OW was C. Labrie (RI1) at 145. Apparently, did not give up a single point all season!


Is this true...Labrie did not give up a point all year - through duals and tournaments. How many wins is that. If true outstanding achievement. Most impressive.
nb135
Sun Mar 03 2013, 10:59AM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1213
Back_Points wrote ...

OW was C. Labrie (RI1) at 145. Apparently, did not give up a single point all season!


Is this true...Labrie did not give up a point all year - through duals and tournaments. How many wins is that. If true outstanding achievement. Most impressive.

at lowell he let up a point but idk if an escape counts
Beemer
Sun Mar 03 2013, 11:38AM
Registered Member #5397
Joined: Tue Feb 06 2007, 12:00PM
Posts: 102
Depends if it's an earned escape. If he let his opponent go, it can be argued he didn't 'give up' a point.
CoachB
Sun Mar 03 2013, 01:06PM
Registered Member #303
Joined: Fri Apr 09 2004, 08:24PM
Posts: 478
An escape is a point, whether it was a "let up" or not.
mray
Sun Mar 03 2013, 01:08PM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1126
CoachB wrote ...

An escape is a point, whether it was a "let up" or not.


I'm glad you said that.
Riter
Sun Mar 03 2013, 01:23PM
Registered Member #5813
Joined: Sat Mar 03 2007, 07:39PM
Posts: 219
1 point is just as impressive
Riter
Sun Mar 03 2013, 04:05PM
Registered Member #5813
Joined: Sat Mar 03 2007, 07:39PM
Posts: 219
I don't know what the current criteria is for this because past rankings have gone either way aftwr new englands. I have to put my two cents in however. If an all state or state champ was beaten in new englands head to head by a wrestler they previously beat that wrestler should be ranked ahead of the champion, i.e. ryan beat derosa in NE and Fritz beat Viruet. If a wrester avenged themselves in NE it should recognized.
victor mcinnis
Mon Mar 04 2013, 11:04AM
Registered Member #10194
Joined: Mon Mar 01 2010, 07:47PM
Posts: 20
Wow Conner Sheehan 113 Fryeburg Academy broke ankle pre-season Tournament ! Battled back to win New Englands !
FlipU4Real
Mon Mar 04 2013, 11:29AM
Registered Member #571
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 564
mray wrote ...

CoachB wrote ...

An escape is a point, whether it was a "let up" or not.


I'm glad you said that.


I disagree...
Obviously it would have to be an unofficial stat... but if the only points someone gives up is escapes that he either gave before a restart, or even ones during action that were clearly intentional.. I would have no problem with the claim that nobody scored on that person.

I guess it's all semantics... need a word that describes "Performed a resisted scoring action"...
coachskp
Mon Mar 04 2013, 11:35AM
Registered Member #847
Joined: Wed Dec 15 2004, 11:37AM
Posts: 894
this years team scores based on state entry
CT1 wins - first time since i started doing this that MA 1 has not won
DNW - did not wrestle - all scratches were put in the bottom team so if the MA2 scratched everyone bumped up and the MA3 scored as the MA2 etc...
CT had 4 scratches out a total of 8
ME showed up big this year making the top 5 for the first time since 2008 when they had 5 finalists

Place Team Points
1 CT1 225
2 MA1 214.0
3 MA2 199
4 ME1 150
5 RI1 142.5
6 MA3 134
7 VT1 127.5
8 NH1 125.5
9 CT2 124
10 CT3 118.5
11 MA4 84
12 RI2 78.5
13 MA5 71
14 ME2 64.5
15 NH2 52.5
16 MA6 50
17 CT4 30.5
18 NH3 28
19 ME3 27
20 VT3 20
21 VT2 17
22 RI3 15
mray
Mon Mar 04 2013, 11:55AM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1126
FlipU4Real wrote ...

mray wrote ...

CoachB wrote ...

An escape is a point, whether it was a "let up" or not.


I'm glad you said that.


I disagree...
Obviously it would have to be an unofficial stat... but if the only points someone gives up is escapes that he either gave before a restart, or even ones during action that were clearly intentional.. I would have no problem with the claim that nobody scored on that person.

I guess it's all semantics... need a word that describes "Performed a resisted scoring action"...


It's not semantics. It's a point for an escape.
victor mcinnis
Mon Mar 04 2013, 11:58AM
Registered Member #10194
Joined: Mon Mar 01 2010, 07:47PM
Posts: 20
Wow Conner Sheehan 113 Fryeburg Academy broke ankle pre-season Tournament ! Battled back to win New Englands !
fan4life
Mon Mar 04 2013, 12:13PM
Registered Member #11496
Joined: Thu Jan 19 2012, 09:30AM
Posts: 99
Riter wrote ...

I don't know what the current criteria is for this because past rankings have gone either way aftwr new englands. I have to put my two cents in however. If an all state or state champ was beaten in new englands head to head by a wrestler they previously beat that wrestler should be ranked ahead of the champion, i.e. ryan beat derosa in NE and Fritz beat Viruet. If a wrester avenged themselves in NE it should recognized.


Yes, I agree. Especially, if the loser at all states has a 3-1 record for the year against the all states winner. I believe this is the case with Fritz and Viruet.
xbmhswrestler
Mon Mar 04 2013, 12:25PM
Registered Member #2918
Joined: Fri Dec 30 2005, 11:12AM
Posts: 583
fan4life wrote ...

Riter wrote ...

I don't know what the current criteria is for this because past rankings have gone either way aftwr new englands. I have to put my two cents in however. If an all state or state champ was beaten in new englands head to head by a wrestler they previously beat that wrestler should be ranked ahead of the champion, i.e. ryan beat derosa in NE and Fritz beat Viruet. If a wrester avenged themselves in NE it should recognized.


Yes, I agree. Especially, if the loser at all states has a 3-1 record for the year against the all states winner. I believe this is the case with Fritz and Viruet.



Where do you draw the line? DeRosa and Ryan were 2-2 against each other. So Ryan beat him in NE's...Ryan should be ahead of him in the rankings? DeRosa beat Mui at NE's last year....he was 1-0 agains Mui....should he have been reanked ahead of Mui?

I think you have to keep the rule. The best guy on the day of the states should be kept in the #1 spot.
Carlascooz
Mon Mar 04 2013, 12:31PM
Registered Member #11519
Joined: Sun Jan 22 2012, 09:43PM
Posts: 250
mray wrote ...

FlipU4Real wrote ...

mray wrote ...

CoachB wrote ...

An escape is a point, whether it was a "let up" or not.


I'm glad you said that.


I disagree...
Obviously it would have to be an unofficial stat... but if the only points someone gives up is escapes that he either gave before a restart, or even ones during action that were clearly intentional.. I would have no problem with the claim that nobody scored on that person.

I guess it's all semantics... need a word that describes "Performed a resisted scoring action"...


It's not semantics. It's a point for an escape.


I agree with Flip. Sure, an escape *is* an escape. And 1 point *is* 1 point. However, letting someone up just so you can take them down again isn't the same thing as not being able to ride someone out.

If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times: A successfully performed manuever in the interest of gainful pointage is not the same as a non-resisted point gained via technicality.
mray
Mon Mar 04 2013, 12:38PM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1126
OK. Then if you let someone up to take them down and you , in turn, get taken down does that not count? Just a scenario.
FlipU4Real
Mon Mar 04 2013, 12:42PM
Registered Member #571
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 564
mray wrote ...

OK. Then if you let someone up to take them down and you , in turn, get taken down does that not count? Just a scenario.


Now you're just being silly!
Carlascooz
Mon Mar 04 2013, 12:44PM
Registered Member #11519
Joined: Sun Jan 22 2012, 09:43PM
Posts: 250
I still wouldnt consider it a successfully performed manuever in the interest of gainful pointage. Regardless of the outcome, if you let someone go, they haven't *earned* anything.
Back_Points
Mon Mar 04 2013, 02:14PM
Registered Member #11199
Joined: Wed Mar 02 2011, 08:57AM
Posts: 28
Gee, I'm sorry I asked. Did Labrie give up o points, 1 point, etc this year. Let me ask a different way.

Can someone tell me how many points Labries' opponents had this year at the end of all his matches? What was his overall record?

The achievement is the noteworthy point here. Thanks for any help.
xbmhswrestler
Mon Mar 04 2013, 02:19PM
Registered Member #2918
Joined: Fri Dec 30 2005, 11:12AM
Posts: 583
wow...gainful pointage...said twice.

Listen whether you let them up or not...it's a point. There's a reason they were let up and it was for an advantage by the person who let them up. If the score is 9-1...then you had 1 point scored against you. Sheesh. Really with this converstaion?
FlipU4Real
Mon Mar 04 2013, 02:44PM
Registered Member #571
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 564
xbmhswrestler wrote ...

wow...gainful pointage...said twice.

Listen whether you let them up or not...it's a point. There's a reason they were let up and it was for an advantage by the person who let them up. If the score is 9-1...then you had 1 point scored against you. Sheesh. Really with this converstaion?


Poor form!!! you can't offer your opinion and then question the conversation!! oh wait, you can, and just did...

It is a silly conversation, and it IS semantics (the best of course by Carla and her ....)

Wrestler A enters a tournament... Wins every match 1-0, He was unscored on in the tournament..
Wrestler B enters a tournament... Cuts his opponent a couple times and wins every match 17-2.
Who's more dominant? You'd really say that Wrestler B was scored on? Ludicrous!!

If I walk up to you and hand you an apple.. did you earn the apple? What does the word earn mean? In wrestling, we often say that every point awarded is earned..

So maybe we can't say no one scored a point on this guy, but we can say no one earned a point against him (if that's the case, i have no idea), as long as we clarify which definition of the earn we are using...

I cant beleev you wood come on here and try to take away from what the kid earned!!!
nb135
Mon Mar 04 2013, 03:36PM
Registered Member #6515
Joined: Sun Dec 09 2007, 09:42AM
Posts: 1213
xbmhswrestler wrote ...

fan4life wrote ...

Riter wrote ...

I don't know what the current criteria is for this because past rankings have gone either way aftwr new englands. I have to put my two cents in however. If an all state or state champ was beaten in new englands head to head by a wrestler they previously beat that wrestler should be ranked ahead of the champion, i.e. ryan beat derosa in NE and Fritz beat Viruet. If a wrester avenged themselves in NE it should recognized.

Yes, I agree. Especially, if the loser at all states has a 3-1 record for the year against the all states winner. I believe this is the case with Fritz and Viruet.


mui finished ahead of derosa

Where do you draw the line? DeRosa and Ryan were 2-2 against each other. So Ryan beat him in NE's...Ryan should be ahead of him in the rankings? DeRosa beat Mui at NE's last year....he was 1-0 agains Mui....should he have been reanked ahead of Mui?

I think you have to keep the rule. The best guy on the day of the states should be kept in the #1 spot.

fan4life
Mon Mar 04 2013, 03:36PM
Registered Member #11496
Joined: Thu Jan 19 2012, 09:30AM
Posts: 99
xbmhswrestler wrote ...

fan4life wrote ...

Riter wrote ...

I don't know what the current criteria is for this because past rankings have gone either way aftwr new englands. I have to put my two cents in however. If an all state or state champ was beaten in new englands head to head by a wrestler they previously beat that wrestler should be ranked ahead of the champion, i.e. ryan beat derosa in NE and Fritz beat Viruet. If a wrester avenged themselves in NE it should recognized.


Yes, I agree. Especially, if the loser at all states has a 3-1 record for the year against the all states winner. I believe this is the case with Fritz and Viruet.



Where do you draw the line? DeRosa and Ryan were 2-2 against each other. So Ryan beat him in NE's...Ryan should be ahead of him in the rankings? DeRosa beat Mui at NE's last year....he was 1-0 agains Mui....should he have been reanked ahead of Mui?

I think you have to keep the rule. The best guy on the day of the states should be kept in the #1 spot.


What rule? I agree, DeRosa vs. Ryan is less obvious as are other some other cases.

However, I don't think you can take the guy who wins on that day and rule out all other factors if it includes a loss to the same guy one week later during the same hs. wrestling season. See O'boyle and Sughrue from 2012 final rankings. Sughrue beat O'boyle at all states but O'boyle beat him a week later at New Englands. O'boyle was the OW at New Englands and was ranked #1 at 126 in the final rankings from this site.




mray
Mon Mar 04 2013, 03:44PM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1126
FlipU4Real wrote ...

xbmhswrestler wrote ...

wow...gainful pointage...said twice.

Listen whether you let them up or not...it's a point. There's a reason they were let up and it was for an advantage by the person who let them up. If the score is 9-1...then you had 1 point scored against you. Sheesh. Really with this converstaion?


Poor form!!! you can't offer your opinion and then question the conversation!! oh wait, you can, and just did...

It is a silly conversation, and it IS semantics (the best of course by Carla and her ....)

Wrestler A enters a tournament... Wins every match 1-0, He was unscored on in the tournament..
Wrestler B enters a tournament... Cuts his opponent a couple times and wins every match 17-2.
Who's more dominant? You'd really say that Wrestler B was scored on? Ludicrous!!

If I walk up to you and hand you an apple.. did you earn the apple? What does the word earn mean? In wrestling, we often say that every point awarded is earned..

So maybe we can't say no one scored a point on this guy, but we can say no one earned a point against him (if that's the case, i have no idea), as long as we clarify which definition of the earn we are using...

I cant beleev you wood come on here and try to take away from what the kid earned!!!


No one is taking anything away from the kid. It was only stated that a point is a point. It doesn't matter how that point is scored , it is just a point. But trying to explain something to someone who just doesn't get it , is like trying to swim up Niagra Falls. Neither one is going to happen. So keep on Flippin.
eoghanjames
Mon Mar 04 2013, 04:55PM

Joined: Thu Mar 25 2004, 08:11AM
Posts: 1400
About the point thing: I choose not to look at it as a point NOT earned as much as a point "given" away by the aggressor or dominant wrestler from the top position - you then apply this - why let him up? the idea is to pin him or at least it should be. If you let him up you have on some level given in to the notion that you can't pin your man so you take the lesser road to a win - that is why they award a point in this country in folkstyle, I think. I do not like to coach, "let him up and take him down", unless the kid I am coaching is just not a good mat wrestler and I just can't turn him into one...but you better believe I WANT him to be a good mat wrestler as this is the "ultimate" goal for me as a coach...This is one of the reasons why PA is so good and it has to do with philosophy, not semantics (no slight intended flip - as I value many of the points you make) but I kind of hate let em up and take em down...it waters down our sport IMO...three team points for a win and six for a pin - nothing else should count...4/5 team points for lesser victories? ppppuuuu...I spit on them

You happy now Ray? Get some sleep my friend and take ALL your pills at med time
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