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Seeding for the State Dual Tourney 
mray
Thu Feb 02 2006, 08:24AM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1127
Last year when we met, and discussed the tournament we agreed to the idea that we needed to do some sort of Power Seeding in the Sectionals but when it got to the final 4 it would be strictly on a rotation basis. Now there are some rumblings about strictly seeding on winning percentage. You will have teams seeded below teams that they have beaten by 30 or more points. This should not happen. We should be able to sit down and as a group seed all the sections using the basic criteria that we use to seed the individual tourneys. It really is not that hard. Lets make sure that we do this as well as we can because it will cause some very hard feelings when we do not use our "Intelligent Design".
plm_77
Thu Feb 02 2006, 08:36AM

Joined: Sat Apr 03 2004, 03:51PM
Posts: 260
when you say we in your statement mray, do you have any control over this matter? From everything I hear it is strictly on overall win%. With this critiera it would benefit a team that wrestles a weaker schedule. Should we setup a ranking system that resembles the RPI in college sports? I would like to see teams get seeded and if you can clarify this that would be great.
mray
Thu Feb 02 2006, 08:46AM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1127
I am not sure about the RPI but some of it is cut and dry. This penalizes a team for wrestling a stronger schedule. This also puts a doubt of seriousness to this whole format. I know that out West we can easily do that because most of us wrestle each other somewhere along the way. It should not be that difficult for the people out East either. I've sat down with many of the coaches and wrestling administrators and have great respect for their decision making. We need to take a look at this right now.
rockthecradle
Thu Feb 02 2006, 08:57AM
Registered Member #72
Joined: Thu Mar 25 2004, 09:36AM
Posts: 882
Unfortunately other sports use the win/loss % as the seeding criteria...I saw this in soccer and it was absolutely embarrassing...the number 1 seed in a certain division lost only 1 game during the season but they played very weak teams and got smoked in the first round...it's not fair for the teams who play tougher schedules. Seeds should be determined by the coaches using the level of competition as one of the criteria.
plm_77
Thu Feb 02 2006, 09:25AM

Joined: Sat Apr 03 2004, 03:51PM
Posts: 260
So can anyone out there give us a black and white answer as to how they will seed this year? On the MIAA site it says that seeding is up to the Director, but I've heard it will only go off win%.
dwhalleyslug
Thu Feb 02 2006, 10:45AM
Registered Member #461
Joined: Tue Jul 06 2004, 10:15AM
Posts: 197
If they use only winning percentages the team tournament ,at least in the west, will be a joke. As it stands now in D-1 because Amherst is in a weaker league and doesn't wrestle a lot of tough teams has an 8-2 record. By the criteria as I understand it, they (Amherst) will be the # 2 seed. Longmeadow and Ludlow , who wrestle tough schedules will be 5-6 seeds. In D-3 Southwick is undefeated against all D-3 teams they faced and undefeated in their league which inclused D-1 teams will likely be a 3 or 4 seed due to 4 losses to D-1 and D-2 teams out east. Using the present criteria, Southwick and Mt. Greylock who are without question the two best teams in D-3 west will likely meet in a quarter final match. If some sort of common sense isn't applied here, the team tournament will be a farse.
Certamen
Thu Feb 02 2006, 11:19AM
Registered Member #509
Joined: Sun Jul 25 2004, 06:15AM
Posts: 34
Alll of this controversy about seeding for the team tournament could have been easily avoided if the 'powers-to-be' had done their homework. New Jersey, for example, has had a state dual meet championship for years. Somebody could have done a little research to see how seeding might be done. If anybody is interested you can go to

NJISAA.org
on the left under EVENT INFO click Tournaments then click Tournament Downloadable Files then under Sports Regulations click Winter Season Files and scroll down the page and click the 2006wrestling.pdf Pages 33 on discuss the dual meet championship format and specifically address SEEDING. They have a system in place. It seems in Mass some people would rather not have the rules down in black and white so they have the 'flexibility' to change things later on. The 'people in charge' might also want to research the new weight management rule for next season before next November. (starts on page 4)

BTW Why can't the coaches out in the West get the rule books before the end of the season?
This is supposed to be a small benefit of joining the coaches association but year after year it doesn't happen but the association does make it a point to collect dues.


D Gordon
Petro 135
Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:00PM
Registered Member #380
Joined: Tue May 11 2004, 08:07PM
Posts: 51
hey in the end the best team is guna come out on top
nafddur
Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:09PM
Registered Member #581
Joined: Sat Sep 18 2004, 10:24PM
Posts: 694
Certamen wrote ...
Alll of this controversy about seeding for the team tournament could have been easily avoided if the 'powers-to-be' had done their homework. New Jersey, for example, has had a state dual meet championship for years. Somebody could have done a little research to see how seeding might be done. If anybody is interested you can go to

NJISAA.org
on the left under EVENT INFO click Tournaments then click Tournament Downloadable Files then under Sports Regulations click Winter Season Files and scroll down the page and click the 2006wrestling.pdf Pages 33 on discuss the dual meet championship format and specifically address SEEDING. They have a system in place. It seems in Mass some people would rather not have the rules down in black and white so they have the 'flexibility' to change things later on. The 'people in charge' might also want to research the new weight management rule for next season before next November. (starts on page 4)

BTW Why can't the coaches out in the West get the rule books before the end of the season?
This is supposed to be a small benefit of joining the coaches association but year after year it doesn't happen but the association does make it a point to collect dues.


D Gordon


Jeesh, DG, haven't you learned by now? Just because something has worked well in a wrestling state like NJ for decades (such as organized youth wrestling, holding championship tournaments in professional venues, and now dual meet tournament seeding) doesn't mean that we want to do it like that here.

Welcome - you must be new to New England.
rockthecradle
Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:50PM
Registered Member #72
Joined: Thu Mar 25 2004, 09:36AM
Posts: 882
Nice try Cert, but....the only one who could figure that all out would be Nafddur....are you looking for work, Naf? My eyes glazed over when I got to ..."add a. to b. and multiply by the power coefficient ascertained under para ...as amended...COME ON!....we have a dozen teams in each section and less than half will make it to the tourn.....we don't need advanced statistics to come up with the seedings..for the most part it's obvious from the records who should be ranked where...we're not NJ or PA, we're not that big...
mray
Thu Feb 02 2006, 02:23PM
Registered Member #278
Joined: Mon Jan 16 2006, 10:06AM
Posts: 1127
Obviously New Jersey does get it but we are doing this for the first time. The reality is right here in front of us. We were also told that we could seed the tournament rather than by winning percentage due to many of your aforementioned reasons. This is not rocket science and should be a simple fix. If our Leaders do not see this as worth fixing than why should any of us take this seriously. I want my kids to compete and compete well at the individual tournaments. If this tournament is not set up so that it makes sense and works well, why bother making the effort. I realize that we cannot blow this off but we can decide to send a skeleton crew if it is necessary. If you were seeding a national HS tournament (I do realize we are not national material at this time) would you seed a team like McArthur from Long Island behind Danbury , Conn. because their winning percentage is less? It would be ludicrous to do so since McArthur
just beat them 58-12. We are professionals that will do the right thing. Most of us trust each other to do so. As a Sectional Rep it is my obligation to do the right thing for all concerned. Plain and simple; trust us to do the right thing and then watch this thing grow.
fandad
Thu Feb 02 2006, 02:27PM
Registered Member #58
Joined: Thu Mar 25 2004, 06:48AM
Posts: 101
Seeding by winning% is the way it is done in almost every other sport in Mass. for high school tourneys.My kids school is one of the smaller in the league, usually div.3. Most other schools in the league are Div. 2. Most sport seasons they might have an overall losing record but will qualify for tourney play by the 50% rule. They routinely knock off higher seeds who have played a weaker schedule. The worst part is maybe the better team loses " home field " advantage. I guess it's just the easiest way for the miaa to do business.
dwhalleyslug
Thu Feb 02 2006, 02:30PM
Registered Member #461
Joined: Tue Jul 06 2004, 10:15AM
Posts: 197
Yes the best team will win anyway. But the stated purpose of the team tournament is to generate more interest in the sport. How do you hype up a Sectional team championship that ends up a 70-3 blowout? Shouldn't it be the two best teams going at it in a close exiting match? The way it is set up out here at least, the second and third best teams will be eliminated early. The finals will be the best team against a team that will get hammered.
rockthecradle
Thu Feb 02 2006, 02:43PM
Registered Member #72
Joined: Thu Mar 25 2004, 09:36AM
Posts: 882
dwhalleyslug wrote ...
Yes the best team will win anyway. But the stated purpose of the team tournament is to generate more interest in the sport. How do you hype up a Sectional team championship that ends up a 70-3 blowout? Shouldn't it be the two best teams going at it in a close exiting match? The way it is set up out here at least, the second and third best teams will be eliminated early. The finals will be the best team against a team that will get hammered.

Now that's it in a nutshell.... Do The right Thing
sjp
Thu Feb 02 2006, 02:47PM
Registered Member #1421
Joined: Tue Feb 08 2005, 12:57PM
Posts: 637
The MIAA only allows one way of seeding in their post season tournaments, it is done by %. The only power seeded tournament is the hockey super 8 ( abig money maker). They will not allow this to be deviated at all. It penalizes a tough schedule and it doesn't penalize a tough schedule. Weka scedhules may get you a home match and high seed, but it will also get you bounced early. The best team is going to come through, only problem the better teams may meet up earlier, causing a lesser final. Every sport has high seeds fall early due to this especially tennis.

This is basically like fighting city hall, the MIAA wants it there way. We can quage this season, and then attempt to go back to the board and see if they will allow power seeding.

There are no tournament directors that will be allowed to deviate from the % seeding, it is what it is. So yes you may have a team seeded below a team they beat easily during the season.
FlipU4Real
Thu Feb 02 2006, 06:33PM
Registered Member #571
Joined: Mon Sep 13 2004, 09:33PM
Posts: 564
I've heard from a number of coaches who were concerned about schools taking on weaker schedules to qualify for and get seeded higher for the dual tourney.

While it is true that the best team will probably win in the end anyways, there are obviously alot of people, including myself, that would prefer to see this thing seeded by some kind of power ranking system.

I see SJP's point about fighting city hall.. but like city hall, the MIAA is there to serve the coaches and wrestlers... so popular demand should prevail... no?

By the way, I think it's ok to take on a weaker schedule if you know you'll have a weak team and you don't want to get smacked around by all the best teams... it just shouldn't help you qualify for the tourney.
dwhalleyslug
Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:30PM
Registered Member #461
Joined: Tue Jul 06 2004, 10:15AM
Posts: 197
I'm told that my figures are off a little. Amherst is 9-4 with one match remaining. (don't believe everything you read in the paper) However if they beat win Saturday they will be 10-5 and still get the #2 seed in D-1 west if I understand the criteria.
dwhalleyslug
Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:49PM
Registered Member #461
Joined: Tue Jul 06 2004, 10:15AM
Posts: 197
Hmmm I screwed up again ..they will be 10-4 if they win and 9-5 if they lose. either should still get them a 2 seed. And if Ludlow loses all three at Lowell... they are out.
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